Mystery Deaths - Awful

[Chris8688]

Thanks again - this is fantastic info and expertise. CallingColleen1 - your point about the bigger fish dying first because they need more oxygen makes total sense - but the catalyst for this happening remains mystery. An apparent spike in pH robbing the fish of oxygen affecting the larger fish first - all moved out into holding tank (before any are dead) - they are all given salt baths and multiple aerators (they seem to perk up) - then the old water is drained and new put in - then they start dying and don't stop.

Why that first pH spike? Why no oxygen after a year and half absolutely no issues at all with this group of fish. I realize some of this is rhetorical and not answerable but even though the root cause is elusive, I am so curious.

 

[callingcolleen1]

The higher the PH, the more probable that there was ammonia present as well. The bigger fish breathed in more ammonia and that robbed them of oxygen. Moving the fish and giving them a salt bath sometimes does more harm than good. The fish were stressed to begin with, and just moving them in a weakened state can cause them to die as well. I am not a fan of salt baths and I would have done a part water change and disturbed them as little as possible. The aerators gave them a good supply of oxygen and that perks them up.

Prior to this event of the fish dying, did you happen to notice any fish gasping for air at the surface of water, or small bubbles that did not go away on surface of water?

 

[callingcolleen1]

The fish may have been fine in the pond before, but as time goes on the fish get bigger and bigger, and the pond does not grow with them. The goldfish may have just outgrown the pond.

 

[Chris8688]

callingcolleen - this ammonia angle is very interesting. A direct quote from the pond guy (reminder, this is the good pond guy, not the dullards that killed my first batch). He said, "how come there's no bacteria in the pond, didn't I put some in when I opened it?" I responded with, "I don't know, did you"? So he told me to order some. Anyway, this is strange - perhaps no bacteria, combined with using a UV light in the filter (this is the first year that has worked) and then adding pond clarifier could be something to think about... and, not sure if this matters... but a LOT of long soaking rains (not just fast showers), and cold nights - unusual for this time of year.

 

[Chris8688]

... also, I can't say I saw any excessive gasping before this event, but also was not looking for it in the slightest - also, the bubbles on the surface sounds familiar - there's also a lot of foam out there now...

 

[dieselplower]

Lol ok... "how come there is no bacteria in the pond?"... Lol... I'm sure there are bacteria in the pond. You can't see them! How would he know if they were in there or not? The bacteria are nitrobacter and nitrosomonas. They are what convert toxic ammonia and nitrite into less toxic nitrate. You don't put them in there. They come on their own and multiply to handle the level of ammonia etc in the tank.

 

[callingcolleen1]

There should always be some natural bacteria that naturally will develop over time, however the UV light will kill all life that passes under it. I do not use a UV light as I think it inhibits the growth of good bacteria and the overall natural pond balance. If the pond conditions are right, some good bacteria can still develop as bacteria will colonize in the rock surface and other planted areas of pond.

All bacteria will only cease if the pond PH drops very low, and then the water will be too soft and the fish will also gasp for oxygen and can slowly die. Snails, their shells will slowly deteriorate, will also not develop proper under these conditions and thus snails can die off as well, Your PH was very high however, and then Ammonia can be deadly under these conditions. Ammonia pockets can build up and the bigger fish cannot escape them so easy and they succumb to a quick overnight death by suffocation. Others may survive but be in a serious weakened condition. Sometimes when fish are not getting enough oxygen, small bubbles that do not pop or go away, can indicate a lack of oxygen in the water.

Make sure that you have a good working pump and filtration. Also some plants are better suited to a smaller pond with limited space. Do you have water plants? ... If you chose "Sedges", they grow upright, without smothering the pond like floating plants. Lots of sedges will come back year after year and some will bloom lovely too. Sedges are any plant with a "spear" shaped leaf, like the Water Iris, Cattails, Rushes, and Grasses.
The Water Lilly, for example, does little to clean the pond, although it is very pleasing to the eye. Some ponds that I have seen were way over crowded with Lilly pads, like a pad on and pad, and that can act like a blanket and smother the pond too, A very small pond can quickly be overcome and covered in Lily pads and then there is little room left surface exchange of oxygen. If you must have a water lily in a small pond, ensure that it is a miniature or split and divide as needed, and give away the excess tubers.

Sometimes a excess build up of organic waste at the bottom of pond, combined with poor bacteria growth, can lead to bad water quality as well. If the pond has lots of good bacteria, the pond will be like a "stomach" and everything will be well digested before it becomes toxic. However, if the good bacteria is missing, then the pond will behave like a garbage can, where nothing is digesting, just rotting, and then you get Ammonia.

Scoop out the bottom of the pond as needed, clean your filters regular, and remove excess organic solids and preform a partial water change as needed, and that will help maintain the balance of a smaller pond.

 

[callingcolleen1]

I also might add that the little ornamental front yard pond that I have is about 100 Gallons, and I had a difficult time balancing it for the last several years. Then this year, Success !! I cut away large trees so that it now gets WAY MORE SUN, but now the pond water is way clearer cause things are not dropping from the tree constantly. Then I did a part water change and all I added was Liquid Concentrated Pond Peat, and that darkened the water for a good 10 days or so, Then suddenly all the pea green water was gone and FINALLY it looks good!

 

[Dave 54]

Hi and Wecome to the Forum all ponds have bacteria both good bacteria and bad , the good help us maintain a good healthy pond the bad bacteria few in number until the conditions in the pond are just right for them to multiply causing our fish problems. What worries me is the amount of fish you have for such a small pond and also how little you have a grasp on just what is going on with your pond at present, for a start and its a common mistake that at one time or another we have all made in that you are using stick test kits instead of drop test kits may we suggest you swop over to API drop test kits for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. Ph strip tess are proven to be very wide of the mark with their readings again giving you little idea of what is acctually going on in the pond .
Next filter maintenance seems to be non as does pond maintenance top marks for using a pond cleaning service but whats wrong with getting down and dirty with your pond and filters yourself ?
Yuk I hear you say but it can tell you lots about the pond and its inhabitants , water drop test kits give you a birds eye view as to the condition of your water, water changes give you that peice of mind knowing all is well in the ponds water chemistry and make up and thus safe for your fish
We have a filter system to die for but it still needs maintenance and even though we employ a bottom drain on our pond, the pond gets weekly 40% water changes, do you have a U/V-C on your pond... if so when did you last chang the bulb ?
Do you have airstones going into your pond from a pond air pump if so when was the last time you cleaned its filter and changed your airstones, if not it would be a smart idea to get one.
Lastly onto your fishes problems (if it isnt water quality issues), then I would look in the direction gill or body flukes and treat them for it, " if your local fish shop has a microscope and can scrape your fish to see if they do indeed have flukes all the better".
Buy this book from Amazon books The Interpet Manual of Fish Health (revised) it will help give you a much greater undertanding of our hobby and is a book we still use 27 years later


Dave

 

[Chris8688]

So a couple of things:

1) The bacteria comment from the pond guy is weird, I admit - obviously you can't see bacteria, but I assumed that the presence of them would manifest in something visible that he determined wasn't there - I will check with him.

2) Went out this morning - one more dead (bigger one) little fish still fine and hungry - 3 big frogs in there. There are little bubbles that don't break on the top and there's a collection of bubbles, almost like foam at the top.

3) Dave - I realize your suggestions/criticisms are purely constructive and well-informed but I need to clarify something. Despite this not being forte and not having a ton of time for it, I don't not have a hands-off attitude towards it. I have someone open and close the pond (which includes cleaning the filters). But each week, I skim out any debris, pull out the dead or dying lilly pads, scrub algae from the waterfall rocks, scrub and clean the pump screen, then backwash the filter multiple times and then rinse it - then replenish any water I drained during the backwash process - so I am not just cluelessly sitting around hoping things work out. Now, I will say that I am new to the chemistry end of things but you have to understand... until last Sunday, I have never had one water chemistry issue (w/ any consequence) since I have owned the house (August of 2009).

Lastly, the more input I get here, the more it seems to not be weedkiller - does anyone else feels the same way? If that's the case, the water (and fish) are starved of oxygen - that's even with new water. As I said, this is the first year using the UV light (and it is working, I can see it at night). This coincided with me adding that pond clarifier... I am thinking that may have killed the good bacteria and started this downward spiral - just not sure why it's not rectifying. I did use the clarifier last year too but not in tandem with the UV light. I swear my fish guy said you can buy that good bacteria in liquid form and add it - I remember him even telling me it stinks, I am going to discuss this further with him. I am reading that the introduction of good bacteria is the best way to fix ammonia overage and oxygen depletion - should I get some?

 

[dieselplower]

If I recall correctly you are on well water. Well water is stored deep in the ground where there is little oxygen. Thus means the dissolved oxygen level in the water, which is what the fish breathe, is also very low. So when you add new water to the pond, it is already low in oxygen. You need vigorous waterfalls, slashing, aeration etc to add oxygen to the new water.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Also, if you are using a "Clairifer", then that will add to your oxygen problems. If you read the lable on the clairifer, it may say to keep your filter's well cleaned out and pumps running good, cause the Clairifer works by making very small particles stick together, but that also lowers the oxygen in the water as well.

 

[waynefrcan]

How much water is chnged each week? Without a good amount the toxins will build up and kill them. Some ponders don't do water changes but their setups are thousands of gallons. This little setup needs all the help it can get, more fresh water, less fish, better aeration.

 

[j.w]

I have well water also and when I add water to the pond I always have the hose above the water surface splashing down into the pond to help w/ aeration.

 

[Tula]

An air pump may be a simple way to learn if it's an O2 issue.