Mystery Deaths - Awful

[Chris8688]

Hello -

I lose about 4-5 inches of water during backwashing then replenish with the well water... the hose does splash as I add it and then the waterfall (when turned back on) is very strong from being cleaned. This has been the pattern for 5 years. Here's a significant update. My fish guy is broken up about this too - he came over today and took some healthy fish and dead ones to an "expert" along with a water sample.

The water is "very balanced" in terms of nitrites and nitrates and "other levels"... this is all I have, no documentation. He confirmed the water test did not include O2.

The dead fish didn't have any obvious external maladies but he said he may have seen mucous in the gills - so maybe the gills are clogged and they can only breathe through mouth? He also said he may have seen irritation on the gills - my fish guy is REALLY trying to pin this on my round up spraying, which it could be but how the hell would that not have killed them all? Also, important to note, there are still 7 fish alive!! That means I had even more than 14 -so yeah, that wasn't good.

Right now the living ones are in a holding tank and the pond is drained. They have multiple aerators running and he put an antibiotic in the water. He did all of this on his own and w/o charging me so I am walking a fine line between making requests of him, asking for updates, but also trying to be indebted to him and let him do his thing.

Next Steps. Landscaper coming Wednesday night to prep for drainage around pond so no runoff goes in - he thinks he can have it done by weeks end. We are also throwing away the lily pads and starting new there. I know people are saying that we should not wash the rocks but I feel that we should in case it was roundup. Then refill, let it establish for a bit, then put the fish back in...

My plan for letting the pond sit w/o fish for the season is not really happening since 7 are still alive.

I welcome any input here - one thing is for sure, I want to do what's right and sensible.

Thank you!

 

[Dave 54]

Hello -


The dead fish didn't have any obvious external maladies but he said he may have seen mucous in the gills - so maybe the gills are clogged and they can only breathe through mouth? He also said he may have seen irritation on the gills - my fish guy is REALLY trying to pin this on my round up spraying, which it could be but how the hell would that not have killed them all? Also, important to note, there are still 7 fish alive!! That means I had even more than 14 -so yeah, that wasn't good.

I said in my inital post to you that my guess that your fish are suffering from gill flukes, one thing about gill flukes is that the fish produces large amounts of mucus arond the gill area and what is the guy saying he may have seen mucus on the gills .
The easiest way to prove ths would be to treat your fish for gill flukes , I promise you they will get better and rapidly
]

Right now the living ones are in a holding tank and the pond is drained. They have multiple aerators running and he put an antibiotic in the water. He did all of this on his own and w/o charging me so I am walking a fine line between making requests of him, asking for updates, but also trying to be indebted to him and let him do his thing.

I think he already knows whats wrong and is treating them what I cant understand however is the using of antibiotics. For one putting antibiotics in water is old school and went out in the 60's we tend to inject nowadays or to feed, Chris could you find out exactly what it is he is using to treat your fish with please ?.
Antibiotics will not cure the problem it needs to be an anti fluke remedy if its gill flukes "its an anti parasite treatment" Glad to hear your a hands on person "never understood the Pond cleaning service" you dont see much of it in the UK, I always like to know exactly whats going on in our pond , then if things go wrong I can only blame myself
Personally when this is over get rid of the guy !!!.......buy the book I suggested and pretty soon you'll be up to speed on all that afflict our fish and how to treat them
Hope this helps you in curing your fish

Dave

 

[waynefrcan]

IS this a preformed pond? IF liner I would make it bigger when the landscaper comes if possible. 150-175 gal is not a pond, it's an outside aquarium lol. Ok kidding you, but it really is to small for all the fish you have and want. They out grew the pond and and used up all the O2. Overcrowding then made them unhealthy and some disease has crept in. Overcrowding can cause the water to build up toxins that do not show up on the normal tests.

 

[Mmathis]

Hi, Chris, and WELCOME to the GPF!

WOW, so many things going on -- when you first posted, I was overwhelmed myself, so decided not to post and add to any confusion. Still a newbie myself. You have gotten a lot of good advice, but I am impressed that you have been able to stay calm, take it all in stride, and break everything [information] down! So many times we see posters who are so caught up in their problem that they can't process all the myriad pieces of advice they are given -- they are just overwhelmed and can't sort it all out.

Pond-keeping is like learning the alphabet. First you learn the letters and their sounds. Then you learn that the letters go together to make words. Yea! But then they start throwing in all the "rules," like "I" before "E," and suddenly you hit that first learning curve..... Then it starts getting exciting all over again when you learn to make sentences! Yea! But then you learn that sentences have a certain set of rules. Grrrrr! Another learning curve....... Etc. etc. etc...... By the time you are in high school, you just KNOW what to do [and can anyone remember a time when they couldn't read & write?]. And it continues, depending on how far you pursue your education.

We're all in a different "school grade" with our pond experience. What happened with you is that you're still learning the alphabet, but have had all of the "rules" thrown at you at one time. Keep going to school, keep learning, don't give up!

 

[Chris8688]

. Thanks for all the feedback here. ok, so another one died on the holding tank last night. At this point we could be looking at stress and shock - they have been through so much. Also, the pond guy put in Melafix - that is the "antibiotic" he put in there. The theory of gil flukes is sounding like a good one - what is the preferred cure there, google lead me here: http://www.revivalanimal.com/Fish-T...trk=gdfV2457_a_7c543_a_7c4269_a_7c31351_d_475

or here:

http://www.wikihow.com/Cure-Flukes-in-Goldfish


I know I have a small pond - this is all inherited from previous owners... remember the water was "normal" after replacement so I guess whatever got to them is still affecting them. You would think that if it was just an O2 problem, they would have pulled through. I want to try treating them for flukes so if someone could weigh-in on the best approach/product there I would really appreciate it.

Thank you again....

 

[waynefrcan]

NOt just O2 problem, maybe the damage has done them in and theres no hope for the rest. I don't know about anyone else but I rarely had any luck with meds, unless you have a qualified person with hands on training looking at them first. And it's funny the books I read say talk to a Veterinarian. WEll when I called they laughed me off the phone. No vets look at fish here.

 

[Chris8688]

Thanks - I am going to try a fluke med - I mean, I am down to 6 fish and I am trying to get this right but options are fading. More fluke med research has lead here:

http://www.amazon.com/Hikari-USA-In...d=1407264664&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=prazi+pond

Can someone tell me if this is the right purchase for me (not guaranteeing that it will work of course - just the right fluke treatment please?

 

[dieselplower]

I said in my inital post to you that my guess that your fish are suffering from gill flukes, one thing about gill flukes is that the fish produces large amounts of mucus arond the gill area and what is the guy saying he may have seen mucus on the gills .
The easiest way to prove ths would be to treat your fish for gill flukes , I promise you they will get better and rapidly
]
I think he already knows whats wrong and is treating them what I cant understand however is the using of antibiotics. For one putting antibiotics in water is old school and went out in the 60's we tend to inject nowadays or to feed, Chris could you find out exactly what it is he is using to treat your fish with please ?.
Antibiotics will not cure the problem it needs to be an anti fluke remedy if its gill flukes "its an anti parasite treatment" Glad to hear your a hands on person "never understood the Pond cleaning service" you dont see much of it in the UK, I always like to know exactly whats going on in our pond , then if things go wrong I can only blame myself
Personally when this is over get rid of the guy !!!.......buy the book I suggested and pretty soon you'll be up to speed on all that afflict our fish and how to treat them
Hope this helps you in curing your fish

Dave

You may want to take Dave 54's advice here. I would consier him one of the best wtih diagnosis and treatment of Koi on this website. He made an educated guess in a post early in the thread and then you posted additional information that made him even more sure of his original diagnosis.

 

[Chris8688]

SOrry for the multiple posts - I am reading and learning as much as possible. I just remembered something. One of the main symptoms of fluke infestation (that I have read) is when fish take food then spit it out - nearly all the bigger ones were doing this at one point... internesting.

 

[Chris8688]

ok, I am pulling the trigger on this:
http://www.amazon.com/Hikari-USA-In...d=1407264664&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=prazi pond

Then:

> Give them the medicine in the holding tank

> Drain rest of pond (it's not on and nearly empty) and power wash. I have to have it washed - it's white from all the salt - even the rocks from the waterfall are white (that guy was way reckless with adding salt).

> Have landscaper put in drainage/water diversion around pond to avoid runoff

> Clean/Wash out pump/filter

> Then refill, put new lilly pads in, and put in microlift PL for bacteria

> Let pond establish

> Test water consistently

> Reintroduce fish

Please tell me where I am wrong. If it is flukes, should other cleaning steps be taken?

Thanks a ton guys, I think I am closer to an answer on root cause...

Other signs for flukes... very white and noticeable poop - some hanging out of the larger lethargic fish. Lastly, not sure if this matters - rotting decaying lillies - that could have just been from the low O2 and dead fish though...

 

[waynefrcan]

I hate to say it, but don't waste money on meds, just give them good conditions to live in and if they make it they make it. Whatever has struck them probably is to damaging to recover from. And Dave has not seen photos, so help is better then an educated opinion at this point only. Many diseases and meds for them, but to nail it properly takes on hand inspection IMO, scrapes under the scope etc.

I have and maybe at some point we all have been here. Will not stop from buying meds and getting help online and then we still sadly watch them all die one by one. The only ever treatment that saved my fish was after I took one koi into a koi dealer shop. HE did a visual and a scrape test under the scope. No parasites and he nailed the disease as bacterial infection and gave me treatment. Guess what the cause was?? Too many fish and not enough water changes.

Learn from all of us here for the future group and you will have a better time in this hobby. I do give you top marks for keeping the pond from the last owner. To many new owners just backfill them in or leave them abandoned.

 

[Chris8688]

Thanks man - My wife is in Real Estate and she sold a house to a couple we know and the guy does NOTHING for the pond... he has fed them about 3 times in 5 years (white rice)... he puts no heater or aerator in the winter... it's awful. He just laughs at me for all the work I put into mine... and I call him the Josef Mengele of Pond Care. But here we are, he has no issues and I have a complete mess... so unfair.

 

[Dave 54]

I hate to say it, but don't waste money on meds, just give them good conditions to live in and if they make it they make it. Whatever has struck them probably is to damaging to recover from. And Dave has not seen photos, so help is better then an educated opinion at this point only. Many diseases and meds for them, but to nail it properly takes on hand inspection IMO, scrapes under the scope etc.

Thanx Wayne thats a good point your making my friend , but though I havent seen any photo's the Symptoms described by Chris are all I need to know on this because his fish mirrored our own koi when we had this problem back in the days of our indoor setup even down to lying on their sides only to swim away when a hand approached them.
I did a scrape at that time and what we saw were gill flukes which at the time I treated with superverm (not suitable for goldfish) within days of us treating them they made a full recovery.
I expect once Chris has treated his fish with Prazi that he will see the same, I did say to Chris that if he took his fish to a dealership and they gave a scrape to one of the fish that my guess would be flukes
Part of being good at diagnosing treatents is having been through each ourselves and remembering the symptoms for any future problems we and others may come across

 

[waynefrcan]

YEs I read all your posts. As you know many diseases show the same symptoms, getting it right over the internet is tough work at times. Some common diseases can be labeled right off but many can't. My 2 sick fish from the other thread needed no meds to survive even though I was told to use them. But I have them in hand to examine and made the call, and with other opinions decided to salt and raise temps only.

Every situation is different. In this case he is down to 5 or 6 from 14 with one dying everyday. He was looking at buying off Amazon.com USA which they use cheap ground service I think, 7-10 days delivery time. They could all be dead by the time he gets the meds. IF he can look at a local area for meds then maybe.

Thks
KElly

 

[waynefrcan]

I just can't see buying a $350 scope to help identify problems that appear only every 3-5 years, but would be great to have I agree. The koi dealer locally has shut down, now I don't know where to go for any future illness.