Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

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crsublette said:
You are obviously are here to just argue since you fail to see the merit in what folk have to say.

Folk "overstock" a fish tank due to aesthetics. Look at the aquariums at fancy hotels and restaurants. Since folk generally do not control their fish from breeding, It actually is quite normal for folk's ponds to eventually become overstocked. Fish only stress from an "overstocked" fish tank due to improperly sized filtration and, with a proper filtration, a fish tank can be maintained with zero water changes.

The pictures show exactly what the water would look like if you were able to drain and just remove the muck from in between the rocks and put it in a bucket.

10% a week water change only replenishes the carbonates and minerals. That's it. Do some reading into the idiom, "pollutant equilibrium". You might just learn something.

Why do you think a major water change throws you into a mini-cycle ??
This is the biggest bluff out there. I have never heard that you dont have to do waterchanges if you have proper filtration. This is a joke. I have NEVER heard of this before. Hahahahahahaha. It doesnt even make any sense, please google it. :)
 

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Mario you are getting getting abusive

There are a lot of ways one can keep a pond and you are wrong on several points.

Small water changes over time do help feed the pond with minerals and do little to reduce the concentrations of well anything. Most of what people try to remove is generated by the fish. The fish may well produce it at a rate near your weekly 10% reduction. That does not even work in a goldfish aquarium.

The biological bacteria lives on surfaces. Large water changes done correctly do not significantly effect the bio filter.
 

crsublette

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Yep, fish food is considered to be in that "organic" category.

Water changes will only remove what is dissolved in the water column. A water change does not prevent "muck" from building up.

If the owner can afford the water consumption costs, then the best option is to do 8~10% daily, not weekly, water change or a flow through system.

Ya keep your DOCs down by maintaining a properly built pond and filtration system. A properly built pond will never allow fish food to remain in the pond for long at all nor allow any waste nor any floating debris remain in the water column long at all. This is the primary source of the DOCs. Not all mechanical filtration devices are equal in performance. If you can see the DOC foam, then it can be easily controlled through a protien skimmer.

A very excellent and expensive pond setup that would do quite fine without water changes would have a higher pond turn over rate, extra bottom drains that feed a computerized self-cleaning rotary drum filter (RDF), a wet/dry filter, proper water current management, floating debris skimmers, ozone protien skimmers, properly sized UV device, and a specialized carbon filter to remove any extra toxins. This system, even though quite expensive, would actually involve zero water changes and only checked the RDFs gauge's and spray nozzles.

A water change would only create a mini-cycle due to the abuse or sterilization of an of inefficient bio-filter. The koi keepers that keep quite expensive koi actually implement flow through systems, which are around 10~15% daily constant water changes.



mariobrothersleeve said:
How to you get your toc down if you dont do wcs? Mechanical isnt the way, i read your other fourms about partical size. So you base your cleaning for a texas winter by just cleaning the bottom 2 times a year? Its seems to good to be true, 5 minutes a day 2 cleanings a year...... Sounds like a weekend worrior :)
For a cheaper route, get a sieve and a pressurized mechanical fine polishing filter. It literally takes just 2 minutes for these two filters to properly flush. The approximately extra 3 minutes would take into account simply emptying the skimmer basket, if this type of skimmer is implemented and testing/dosing the KH, if needed; a skimmer can actually be installed where the basket is bypassed and the debris is pulled into a specially designed suction-pump side sieve.

Of course, the various DIY filters will take longer to clean, but this is also one reason why they're cheaper to build. If your fabricating skills are quite advanced, then ya might be able to build something quite nice.
 

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mariobrothersleeve said:
This is the biggest bluff out there. I have never heard that you dont have to do waterchanges if you have proper filtration. This is a joke. I have NEVER heard of this before. Hahahahahahaha. It doesnt even make any sense, please google it. :)
Just like ya never heard of a freshwater protein skimmer. You have alot to learn.

A major reason why coral reef keepers maintain water changes is due to the fact coral reef water quality requirements are tremendously more finicky and also particular keepers will add the wrong, quicky and easy, products such as calcium chloride to maintain the calcium nutrient level that eventually create an ionic imbalance due to the choride surplus if water changes are not implemented. A goldfish/koi freshwater pond is no where near as finicky as a coral reef tank.
 
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HTH said:
Mario you are getting getting abusive

There are a lot of ways one can keep a pond and you are wrong on several points.

Small water changes over time do help feed the pond with minerals and do little to reduce the concentrations of well anything. Most of what people try to remove is generated by the fish. The fish may well produce it at a rate near your weekly 10% reduction. That does not even work in a goldfish aquarium.

The biological bacteria lives on surfaces. Large water changes done correctly do not significantly effect the bio filter.
Actually, it is very true, 10% a week is what everyone does or 20% every 2 weeks for reef keeping. No lie please look it up. It keeps salt water perfect and ideal.
 
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crsublette said:
Just like ya never heard of a freshwater protein skimmer. You have alot to learn.

A major reason why coral reef keepers maintain water changes is due to the fact coral reef water quality requirements are tremendously more finicky and also particular keepers will add the wrong, quicky and easy, products such as calcium chloride to maintain the calcium nutrient level that eventually create an ionic imbalance due to the choride surplus if water changes are not implemented. A goldfish/koi freshwater pond is no where near as finicky as a coral reef tank.
Actually this is not correct, you add calcuim seperatly or buy it premixed, you do wcs to keep your nitrates and phosphates down, witch in large ppm stresses and kills fish.
 

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mariobrothersleeve said:
Actually, it is very true, 10% a week is what everyone does or 20% every 2 weeks for reef keeping. No lie please look it up. It keeps salt water perfect and ideal.
A pond is not a salt water aquarium. To keep nitrates down fancy goldfish people do weekly large changes of up to 100%.
 

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mariobrothersleeve said:
Actually this is not correct, you add calcuim seperatly or buy it premixed, you do wcs to keep your nitrates and phosphates down, witch in large ppm stresses and kills fish.

Correct. However, a 10% a week water change in a pond is going to reach a pollutant equilibrium.

To reduce the demand of water changes, the reason why aquarium tanks utilize specially built, highly regulated, denitrification filters or use special nitrate/phosphate filter medium is to remove the nitrates and phosphates. I bet it is possible to build these for a pond, but it is completely unnecessary since the plants will keep the nitrates and phosphates in control within a reasonable range for freshwater goldfish / koi fish health.
 
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I really want to try the build your own filtration systems. The waterchanges is the cheapest part, those pressurized filters(i have 2) are expensive in the up keep. 65 dollars in filters and biomedia 2x's per year on top of the 500 a piece for the canisters. They backflow great for the first 10sec and then a trickle. Way better off just to pull them out (the filters) and pressure hose them off. You could backflow them till your pond is empty, and youll still have build up. Not a wise decision if you pond for long term.
 

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Fancy goldfish people do large water changes up to 100% to keep the nitrates down. For FANCY goldfish aquariums 10 to 20% is not enough to keep it in check and you end up with sick and dead fish. I am not suggesting that for a pond. I am saying it is possible if done correctly and that the small changes just feed the algae. It would be easy enough to try. Two green water cultures, use one for a control...

One can chase pond water parameters the way they do with reef but it is way more work then required. A decent pond is large enough that nature will take care of it.

I was playing with freshwater protien skimmers (aka foam fractioners) over 10 years ago. Things come and go and I have not heard much about them on forums recently. I would not hold it against anyone for not knowing about them.
 

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Plants with roots in the water take care of the nitrate. Potted plants at best make things worse.

I now pot my plants in nursery pots with holes. A bit of newspaper hold the dirt in place till the plant roots get there. By then the soil has been morphed into a something that does not easy escape the pot. Some pants escape the pots and do fine on the bottom.
 
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HTH said:
Plants with roots in the water take care of the nitrate. Potted plants at best make things worse.

I now pot my plants in nursery pots with holes. A bit of newspaper hold the dirt in place till the plant roots get there. By then the soil has been morphed into a something that does not easy escape the pot. Some pants escape the pots and do fine on the bottom.
I have purple water iris and water lillies, i use planters rock for them. I purchase every year water cabbage(because it dies with below zero weather) and they grow crazy! My upper pond will be overtaken if i am not on the cabbage!
 

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HTH said:
I was playing with freshwater protien skimmers (aka foam fractioners) over 10 years ago. Things come and go and I have not heard much about them on forums recently. I would not hold it against anyone for not knowing about them.
They're actually talked about more than ya think. In many avid koi hobbyiest circles, it is one of those basic functions that is present in a pond's system. Here's a GPF's FF build thread. In other forums, I have recently read a few discussions about the fancier, more expensive, FF devices that is called a Clarity unit with ozone.
 
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crsublette said:
They're actually talked about more than ya think. In many avid koi hobbyiest circles, it is one of those basic functions that is present in a pond's system. Here's a GPF's FF build thread. In other forums, I have recently read a few discussions about the fancier, more expensive, FF devices that is called a Clarity unit with ozone.
Yea, if you give me 2g's for those i may look into them. This is for very diehard pros who make a living off of their stock. Everyday users have no use for them that koi farms sell. Your temp and humidity are everything on them too. A japanese man made an identical one used is salt water, but it stands 8ft tall. Kinda hard to hid that under one of them plastic rocks
 

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Construction is up to your imagination. It doesn't have to be 8 foot tall; it is only this tall due to the flow rate and agitation. You can have 4 columns, each just 2 foot or so tall, and achieve the same at the 8 foot tall one. You can also build a "counter current" foam fractionator that utilizes severe agitation with air diffusors. Here's just one example of a "counter current" FF and here's a youtube example of a counter current FF, which I actually like this design a little better.
 

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