Solving the algae mystery

Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,297
Location
Phoenix AZ
I was just reading yet another thread where there many posts saying the path to no algae is no nutrients. I didn't want to post there because it only upsets people. But for people wanting to know how ponds and algae really work I thought I'd post a few things people could check out for themselves.

For people who already have a pond I don't think these myths do any great harm. For people designing a pond these myths cause people to change plans like move from a sunny location where they'd like a pond to a shady location that is less desirable. Or increase cost and work by building "filters" that do nothing or add plants that can increase algae and make algae removable difficult.

Myth #1 - Sunlight causes algae so shade kills algae
It is true plants need sunlight. It's true a total lack of sun would eliminate algae. The myth is that algae can't grow in low light.

How much light do plants need? Well moss grows on the north side of trees. That's total shade. Plants grow on the ground in a rain forest. People who keep aquariums certainly know algae grows indoors with almost no light.

Consider a green pond in full sun...really bad right? Well most of the water is actually very shaded because the green water blocks light. In a green pond light barely gets down a couple of inches, yet if you brought some water up from the bottom it would be green. This includes ponds with no water movement.

Shade is actually better for algae. UV is harmful to algae. Algae can only use about 10% of full direct sunlight. So moving a pond because a bunch of people believe the myth and repeat it a million times can really work against you.

Myth #2 - Starving algae out of existence
By far the wackiest and most repeated "fact" in the pond world. There are two parts to this. Part one is many people seem to think plants use nutrients like we use food as a fuel. False. Like us nutrients are mainly used to build new cells. Algae create fuel via sunlight. They need virtually no nutrients to produce fuel. Unless you consider water and carbon as nutrients. Good luck removing water and carbon from your pond.

Part two is the belief somehow nutrients in a pond can be made low enough to eliminate algae growth (cell division). This is pure fantasy. Say you measure your pond water and find 0 nitrate and 0 ammonia. Pond is nutrient free right? Nope. Fish produce ammonia right? How can any pond be nutrient free if there are fish? To say nothing of the fish food we toss into the pond.

BTW, what is fish food? Mostly it dried fish, shrimp type stuff. Basically the same stuff in fish emulsion, a plant fertilizer.

Lots of people say their super duper filter removes nutrients and starve algae. No such pond filters exist. At best maybe a few might lower nitrate a bit but these are not common filters.

Algae eat ammonia.
Let's take the ammonia continuously coming off of your fish. Algae will consume ammonia directly as their primary nutrient for cell creation. Not only can they do it, they prefer it. Given a water sample with algae and ammonia and nitrate the ammonia will be consumed first. There's a chemical reason for this but lets just say ammonia is like candy and nitrate is like broccoli. Algae can consume both, but prefers ammonia.

So the idea is the fish produce ammonia which disperses evenly throughout the pond very fast. But for some reason algae will refuse to eat this candy and instead wait for all the water to go thru the super duper filter which removes the ammonia and starves the algae. That would be very nice of the algae wouldn't it? Wacky, wacky concept.

And what does this super duper filter do? Converts the ammonia into nitrate which the algae can also consume.

Then why is everyone talking about bio filters and the nitrogen cycle????
That all came from aquariums and later Koi Ponds. In those systems ammonia is a big problem. Koi Ponds (actual Koi Ponds, not just ponds with Koi) are kept very clean. They do all kinds of things to kill algae and keep it down. Plus they generally have very high fish loads. Water Gardens are much different systems. Low fish loads and generally a lot of algae. Even a clear Water Garden with little visible string algae will still have a lot of algae and other creatures. This is why most Water Gardens don't need the bio filters Koi Ponds need.

Plants
Or maybe add higher plants to the pond. Water hyacinth, that'll starve algae. Again, we're back to the same wacky idea. Why would algae starve while the WH thrive? There's plenty of nutrients for this huge complex plant but not enough for this single cell plant? It makes ridiculously little sense.

Actual data is steps away.
When people stop typing myths on keyboards and instead, get up, and actually measure the nutrient level in different ponds the myth is fully exposed. A green pond will almost always measure 0 ammonia and O or very low nitrate. A clear pond will almost always measure fairly high nitrate. The exact oppose of what the myth says. You can do the test yourself or read pretty much any study on algae in farm ponds, lakes, etc. Or just keep typing the same myth over and over which is even easier.

Less growth - no growth are 2 completely different concepts.
Less sunlight and nutrients can reduce growth but that is not the same thing we see in algae free ponds. If you reduce sun and/or nutrients you will get less algae. Your pond will still be green, but less green. Instead of the pond being completely full of string algae it might only be 1/2 full.

Almost algae free, which is what we're after, is another deal altogether. We know this because there are lots of ponds in full sun, lots of nutrients, and almost algae free. And because of experiments that show the solution.

The algae mystery explained.
If you saw a moose coming to your pond everyday and watch it munch string algae you would know why your pond is algae free. People make this same connection to filters, shade or whatever they do to remove algae. "I added X and 3 weeks later the algae was gone so obviously X works".

But there is more to your pond than what you can see. Look at the water under a microscope. There are an amazing amount of life in there. Animals, bacteria, virus, algae. It makes the African savanna or a rainforest look like a lifeless moon scape.

Algae live in this world. For green water algae this is their entire world. But even string algae starts out as a single cell. Why can't we even consider this world as a reason for why algae comes and goes? Because we can't see it with our naked eye? Is that really the limit of our ability to understand things? It was up until 400 years ago at least for many people.

The elephant in the room is zooplankton. Your pond is full of these algae eaters. These are well known, studied and taught about. Why do they get no credit? Because we can see them? Too bad we can read either.

This world is really complex and we're learning more everyday. But there is already a lot of research that shows there are epic battles fought between animals, plants and bacteria. We know for example that water from a clear pond (that naturally converted from green) is toxic to green water algae. If you pour water from the clear pond into a container of water from a green pond the algae will die very fast. The same for water being toxic to string algae.

We don't fully understand all the processes. But the first step is to leave myths behind and find real solutions.

TV show that explains a little of the latest research.
The TV show Nature did a great show last year called What Plants Talk About that might open a few minds to a more realistic understanding of ponds and algae. You can watch the entire show here. Thank you PBS.

If you're planning a pond or looking for an algae solution and think a bog, or plants are the solution good luck to you. The good news is that in most ponds algae will be killed by all these tiny creatures and plants and you can believe it was the bog, or filter, or plants.
 

JohnHuff

I know nothing.
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
2,257
Reaction score
1,621
Location
At my computer
Hardiness Zone
1a
Country
Kyrgyzstan
I'm sorry to say that WB's post is contradictory, rambling, sensationalist, too pedantic in terms, imprecise and will only serve to confuse people who are trying to learn from it.

Myth #1 - Sunlight causes algae so shade kills algae
I don't think anyone has ever said that and photosynthesis is fact, folks. Shade doesn't kill algae but photosynthesis needs light.

Myth #2 - Starving algae out of existence
Your myth #2 is part truth, part stuff which no one has said and contradictory.

Anyone who wants to learn about algae growth is better off Googling "How does algae grow."

Look, if you throw tons of food into the pond, you're throwing tons of N, P, atoms etc. into the pond which will become nitrogenous compounds.

You yourself said that algae and bacteria will both consume NH3.

Bacteria in the filter will convert NH3 to NO3- (nitrates) which both algae and plants will use.

So if you have a good filter that converts (removes) NH3 and you have plants that compete with algae for NO3-, you will be keeping algae down. That's not a myth, it's well documented. And not hard to understand.

"Lots of people say their super duper filter removes nutrients and starve algae. No such pond filters exist. At best maybe a few might lower nitrate a bit but these are not common filters."
But we know they do, you just said it. They convert NH3 which you just said was candy to algae.

Ya, zooplankton eats algae, but no one has ever successfully used zooplankton to completely clear a pond of algae. That's the myth. Has anyone ever seen someone successfully clear a pond using zooplankton only?

I know my super duper filter clears does it's thing to help clear my pond of algae. For one thing, it mechanically filters algae. I see that with my own eyes. The bacteria in it will also convert the NH3 to NO3-, again proven. And algae and plants can fight over that.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,818
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
We live and learn John that must mean we have a good filter system on the pond for it to keep the water crystal clear and just has to be the answer to the reason why we dont have green water and other people do cheers(y)
One question though why do we have a neat green lawn on the bottom and dides of the pond . is it our system only takes care of water bournne algae ?

Dave
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
Interesting. How about, it's a combination of factors that work together, in an attempt to achieve balance?

Yep, that is essentially it...

There is no single natural "solution". There is no way of naturally "solving" the algae mystery. There is no way of even doing a "wham, bam, thank you ma'am, never have to worry again" chemical solution. It is a farce to apply such terms to a quite prehistoric organism, that is algae. Here is my perspective on algae, post#2 in algal blooms.


Most often significant algae growth is found when there is an imbalance in the nutrients, rather than the mere existence of the nutrients. This is practiced quite often in the planted aquarium hobby, that is where they know exactly what type of algae will grow whenever the nutrient balance changes, such as an over saturation or a significant depletion of carbon dioxide; however, there will still be algae present in one form or another.

Also, if folk think that they can simply fix their green pond algae worries by simply transporting water from a pond that was heavy in string algae or transporting the string algae itself, then good luck with that... These two types of algas are commonly found in the same waters. Now, one will be more dominant in the water than the other at particular locations, but they both can still exist in the same pond, that is due to chemical dilution and the short half life of allelopathic chemicals, which is still not understood very well. Also, this solution does not work very well whenever there is a noticeable water change system involved, that is either due to constant heavy rains or due to a significant water changing system.

If anyone wants to know more about how plants impact algae growth and how particular types of algae can impact other algae, then simply read post#83 on the algal blooms thread.

In the context of filtering, it can reduce the presence of algae by creating a nutrient imbalance and removing particulates, which create the components for particular algae species to thrive, that is in particular the species that thrive on decay. Also, in the biological filters, there is a complex population of microorganisms and not all of them are present solely for the nitrogen cycle, which is why there is often experiences of a reduction in algae when filtering is increased.

Also, there are algae species that initially start growing from a bacteria spore and then becomes a quite complex, self sustaining algae that often requires chemical or animal intervention to kill it.


Trying to stop algae in a pond is exactly like trying to stop "weeds" from going in our pristine lawns. In other words, it is a constant battle.

All we can do is mitigate the presence of algae.
 
Last edited:

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
We live and learn John that must mean we have a good filter system on the pond for it to keep the water crystal clear and just has to be the answer to the reason why we dont have green water and other people do cheers(y)
One question though why do we have a neat green lawn on the bottom and dides of the pond . is it our system only takes care of water bournne algae ?

Dave

In as far as I understand your question... I think your assumption is correct, that is if "water bournne algae" is referring to the floating variety... Although, if you use any matting, then look at it under a microscope, then I bet you will see some of the "water born" algae quite alive, that is if you do not oxidize it at any time.
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
I pretty much agree with everyone above me...

Unfortunately... when it comes to such complex subject matters... the most simple answer is often the most wrong answer... And this is even not entirely correct...

Unfortunately, I too often read and hear folk give too simplistic of an answer, which can mislead folk into making costly decisions.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,297
Location
Phoenix AZ
Interesting. How about, it's a combination of factors that work together, in an attempt to achieve balance?
Absolutely. A tree's shade would slow down the growth of grass under it is called resource competition. Then trees like Black Walnut and Pecan produce a chemical to weaken the grass even more, called allelopathy.

To me there is no end state in nature, it's always changing, so I stay away from using the term "balance". But yeah, systems can become very stable for awhile and appear to be in some kind of balance.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,297
Location
Phoenix AZ
I'm sorry to say that WB's post is contradictory, rambling, sensationalist, too pedantic in terms, imprecise and will only serve to confuse people who are trying to learn from it.
Some people. Other people can read, research and learn for themselves. The concept that info confuses people and therefore should not be presented is...well, you're good with hyperbole so I'll let you fill in the blank.

BTW, you don't really seem to be that sorry.

Myth #1 - Sunlight causes algae so shade kills algae
I don't think anyone has ever said that
You mean word for word? Search any pond forum for "algae" and "sunlight" and you'll be buried (hyperbole just for you) in examples.

and photosynthesis is fact, folks. Shade doesn't kill algae but photosynthesis needs light.
...point?

Myth #2 - Starving algae out of existence
Your myth #2 is part truth, part stuff which no one has said and contradictory.
Again, search any aquarium or pond forum for "algae" and "nutrient". You'll be buried even deeper.

Anyone who wants to learn about algae growth is better off Googling "How does algae grow."
If you want to see the myths repeated over and over. This only tells you what most people think how algae grows. The web is their soap box. If you really want to know about these systems it takes actual learning and research. And it also should include recent research because a lot of interesting work has been done in the last 10 years.

I loved what the guy on the Nature show said about discussing this stuff. "If you talk to a lay person about this they'll think you're crazy. If you talk to a scientist about this they'll think you're crazy and wrong."

Look, if you throw tons of food into the pond, you're throwing tons of N, P, atoms etc. into the pond which will become nitrogenous compounds.
Yes. I think pretty much everyone knows that. Is there some conclusion you're trying to draw?

You yourself said that algae and bacteria will both consume NH3.

Bacteria in the filter will convert NH3 to NO3- (nitrates) which both algae and plants will use.
Yes. I did say that. I've said it in probably 1000 posts over the years.

So if you have a good filter that converts (removes) NH3 and you have plants that compete with algae for NO3-, you will be keeping algae down.
That is true. However what you're trying is a straw man. Of course plants will use nutrients and keep algae down...I devoted a bunch of words in the post saying the very thing.

The myth is the plants would consume all nutrients before the algae had a chance to, which is silly. And that the algae will starve and the pond will be algae free while the plants by some unexplained miracle continue to thrive. It makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

That's not a myth, it's well documented. And not hard to understand.
Documented? If you mean repeated million of times? Yes.

If you mean your straw man then yes again. I'm not sure it has ever been actually documented in a study because it is so obvious.

If you mean what this thread is about, that plants can use enough nutrients to make a pond algae free then no. There are absolutely no studies showing plants can eliminate algae. And you presented not even a single source...just your opinion. In contrast to your opinion there's are lots of studies and papers about algae free water having lots of nutrients but algae being unable (or virtually unable) to grow in that water. Norm Meck's is one.

"Lots of people say their super duper filter removes nutrients and starve algae. No such pond filters exist. At best maybe a few might lower nitrate a bit but these are not common filters."

But we know they do, you just said it. They convert NH3 which you just said was candy to algae.
So you caught me at something? Filters convert ammonia to....what? Nitrate perhaps. A nutrient. A filter that converts ammonia to nitrate isn't actually removing nutrients.

Ya, zooplankton eats algae, but no one has ever successfully used zooplankton to completely clear a pond of algae. That's the myth. Has anyone ever seen someone successfully clear a pond using zooplankton only?
And you know this to be true because....you just kind of know?

This of course is another straw man. Pretty sure I didn't say zooplankton to completely clear a pond of algae. Pretty sure I types a butt load of text saying stuff like complex system, plant warfare, bah, bah, bah.

I know my super duper filter clears does it's thing to help clear my pond of algae. For one thing, it mechanically filters algae. I see that with my own eyes. The bacteria in it will also convert the NH3 to NO3-, again proven. And algae and plants can fight over that.
That's why my post was in a thread where people were going on and on about stuff they imagine to be true. People don't like it. They prefer the myths. Which is perfectly cool. My post was for the tiny fraction of people who look in forums as guests for info. But don't worry a bit, 99% of info on the internet will remain facts based on opinion. You view is in absolutely no danger of ever going out of style.
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
TV show that explains a little of the latest research.
The TV show Nature did a great show last year called What Plants Talk About that might open a few minds to a more realistic understanding of ponds and algae. You can watch the entire show here. Thank you PBS.

If you're planning a pond or looking for an algae solution and think a bog, or plants are the solution good luck to you. The good news is that in most ponds algae will be killed by all these tiny creatures and plants and you can believe it was the bog, or filter, or plants.


Awesome video. Although, I think there is a tad too much willingness to romanticize the subject such as suggesting plants are possibly self-aware, altruistic, and socially attentive rather than simply admitting that absolutely everything they are talking about involves reactions to chemicals, which I do not see how simple chemical stimuli indicates abstract thought and freedom of will, within its own constraints, that is indicative of intelligence. Although, I am not surprised since it is PBS.

Now, it would be interesting is if that parasitic vine did not choose the tomato plant whereas all of the other parasitic vines in the same environment did choose the tomato plant. This would at least indicate some level of intelligence.


It would be more suitable to suggest that plants are more like insects rather than animals.



I loved what the guy on the Nature show said about discussing this stuff. "If you talk to a lay person about this they'll think you're crazy. If you talk to a scientist about this they'll think you're crazy and wrong."


Yeah, I took that as a poor attempt of him viewing his work as being quite profound rather than simply the study of how plants react to its environment.
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
To me there is no end state in nature, it's always changing, so I stay away from using the term "balance". But yeah, systems can become very stable for awhile and appear to be in some kind of balance.


"Balance" does not assume there is an "end state" and actually it is quite the opposite when the term is applied in the context of biology.

In the context of biological balance, there is a "dynamic equilibrium existing between members of any relatively stable natural community and being the resultant of all the effects of the constituent organisms on one another." In otherwords, "balance" achieved except the mechanisms are constantly changing so to maintain this "balance". I do not see how the change in the mechanisms would indicate there is not a "balance". "Balance" simply describes there is a final steady state of the system, which does not mean the steady state is a static "end state".
 

JohnHuff

I know nothing.
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
2,257
Reaction score
1,621
Location
At my computer
Hardiness Zone
1a
Country
Kyrgyzstan
The concept that info confuses people and therefore should not be presented is...well, you're good with hyperbole so I'll let you fill in the blank.
You were try to make a post to explain algae. Instead, you posted a 1000 word post that only served to confuse.

The goal is to make it simple! Not more confusing.
 

JohnHuff

I know nothing.
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
2,257
Reaction score
1,621
Location
At my computer
Hardiness Zone
1a
Country
Kyrgyzstan
OK, here's the deal if you want to cut down on algae in your pond.

1) Do not overfeed your fish.
2) Have good water flow.
3) Have a good mechanical and bio-filter.
4) Have plants.

That about covers it.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,818
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
OK, here's the deal if you want to cut down on algae in your pond.

1) Do not overfeed your fish.
2) Have good water flow.
3) Have a good mechanical and bio-filter.
4) Have plants.
That about covers it.
John I have I dont do no1, i have no2, no3 but being a formal pond dont have no4 so it has to be down to good water flow and an exellent mechanical andbio filter system you should also add a number 5
5) dont over stock the system yours is made for.


Dave
 

JohnHuff

I know nothing.
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
2,257
Reaction score
1,621
Location
At my computer
Hardiness Zone
1a
Country
Kyrgyzstan
Plants
Or maybe add higher plants to the pond. Water hyacinth, that'll starve algae. Again, we're back to the same wacky idea. Why would algae starve while the WH thrive? There's plenty of nutrients for this huge complex plant but not enough for this single cell plant? It makes ridiculously little sense.
Of course it does, you contradict yourself.
- Here's how it works. Your biofilter converts the candy NH3 to NO3-. So there is no or little. NH3. Algae resorts to NO3-, but WH uses this also. WH means less NO3- for the algae. And I've seen it work. When I was new to this, I hired a maintenance guy. He took away all the WH saying that they were all gonna die anyway. The next thing I knew, the pond was completely filled with algae in the next day or two. And I mean filled so much that I couldn't see a few inches into the water. Co-incidence? I think not. Also, you ever heard of veggie scrubbers? So not a myth of a wacky idea. Makes complete sense.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
30,922
Messages
510,020
Members
13,132
Latest member
Suejhadley

Latest Threads

Top