Water Changes

[crsublette]

Good to see you again Charles, it's been awhile. Hope you and yours are well.

It's all good. I'm still kick'n, chicken.

I appreciate that and back at ya ... Just life has its ways of interrupting. Grrr.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Yep, and I use aquaculture text (which has the most in common to our context) to support my semantics, and no where is there a suggestion that a Trickle Tower is, as you stated in post#206, "a Trickle Tower is designed to develop areas of low or no Oxygen to foster the growth of anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria that have the ability to convert Nitrate directly into Nitrogen gas".

And my post above, stated by Ebeling, uses the terms "trickle tower" and "trickle filter" interchangeably.

All of which has no bearing on the original use of the term in Koi keeping as mentioned by Manny Sanke. This is the definition that I have used for 20 years.

I originally mentioned this term in this thread as a means of reducing Nitrate levels in a dedicated Koi Pond. So whatever you may want to label it, the use of a device that utilizes anaerobic bacterial action to denitrify pond water is the most effective method of reducing Nitrate levels in a dedicated Koi pond. It is the process that is important, not the label.
Incidentally, it seems that the aquaculture industry has not decided on a universally accepted name for these denitrifying devices.

 

[crsublette]

All of which has no bearing on the original use of the term in Koi keeping as mentioned by Manny Sanke. This is the definition that I have used for 20 years.

That's fine. However, hobby folk often misrepresent, attempt to reinvent, and make "new" what has already been known for decades. The fact "they have their" definition for 20 years is not surprising and unfortunate since it only significantly adds to the confusion when teaching the subject matter.

It is the process that is important, not the label.

I agree.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

That's fine. However, hobby folk often misrepresent, attempt to reinvent, and make "new" what has already been known for decades. The fact "they have their" definition for 20 years is not surprising and unfortunate since it only significantly adds to the confusion when teaching the subject matter.

True, but in this case the hobbyist usage precedes the aquaculturist usage by several years. Denitrification in aquaculture has only been seriously discussed since the advent of RAS.
In any case...you say Tomato and I say Tomahtoe. Or is it the reverse?

 

[crsublette]

True, but in this case the hobbyist usage precedes the aquaculturist usage by several years. Denitrification in aquaculture has only been seriously discussed since the advent of RAS.
In any case...you say Tomato and I say Tomahtoe. Or is it the reverse?

Yep, I mostly agree with ya there, but, in many cases, hobbyists could always proclaim that higher mantle for usage of various nomenclature prior to any industry.

Fact is RAS is as concerned about denitification just as much as hobbyists (if not more due to the higher stakes involved within aquaculture) and, still, the typical definition among industry practitioners of a Trickle Tower/Filter is used interchangeably to describe mostly aerobic processes, oxygenation, and CO2 stripping within aquaculture.

Can a Trickle Tower/Filter be used as a denitrification reactor? Of course and Manky Sanke makes a reasonable persuasion for it, but I have not read this to be the dominant definition by practitioners.

 

[crsublette]

Moving bed bio-reactors (MBBR) can also be used for denitrification as well as nitrification and has been tried both ways within aquaculture. However, hobbyists and aquaculturists alike likely would have a problem with claims of, in our context, MBBR designed by definition to be an anaerobic filter.

 

[crsublette]

Honestly, "Trickle tower/filter", moving bed bio-reactor, fixed film bio-reactor (etc etc) more so describes the construction of the device rather than its purpose.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

but I have not read this to be the dominant definition by practitioners.

In current usage.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

To add another facet to the confusion, the practice of raising decorative fish in any form of pond is considered to be a form of Aquaculture.

 

[tbendl]

Did I just go from having a pond with a bog to practicing aquaculture with an upflow wetlands filter? Man I'm moving up in life!

 

[tbendl]

After some consideration I'm holding out for an Aquatic Engineer who specializes in a nutrient and pathogen removal in a subsurface upflow wetland filtering system and who supports tettrapods in an aquacultural state. I also feel like I should now get paid for this.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

You guys talking about which field's (hobby fish keeping, aquaculturist) terminology predates or precedes which, I think is a moot point. Both have been done for centuries and you can find information on both subjects dating back as far as written history goes, but when it pertains to the science and terminology of using bacteria cultures, media beds, trickle tower/filters and the de-nitrification and purification of water I'm pretty sure that the wastewater treatment field predates both hobby fish keeping and aquaculture. I'm open to any evidence that proves me wrong, or anything that shows either field using that terminology earlier then this >>> http://web.deu.edu.tr/atiksu/ana52/ani4041.html


"Dr. Alexander Mueller's demonstration in 1865 that sewage could be purified by living organisms in a filtration column "

" 1875 - 1900 : Following upon the singular work by Mueller over a decade earlier, several researchers successively explored the microbial aspect of sewage purification. Five years later, Warrington confirmed that sterilized solutions lost their nitrifying ability until inoculated by fresh soil. And in 1890, Winogradsky succeeded in identifying Nitrosomonas bacteria."
" In 1893, J. Corbett also employed a serial filter scheme, with an additional wooden trough to continuously distribute influent sewage across the bed. And in the same year, F. Wallis Stoddart reported on the use of a course media filter receiving a continuous, trickling flow. Of these two latter researchers, Corbett acknowledged the impetus and direction provided by the previous Lawrence findings. Stoddart, however, insisted that his work stemmed from Frankland's principles and that his continuously percolated units were the first of their kind. In either case, the trickling filter (tower?) had been conceived.

"Trickling filters were first introduced to the US in 1901 at Madison, Wisconsin."

 

[Meyer Jordan]

You are absolutely correct Randy. Most, if not all, of the processes in current use in both Aquaculture and pondkeeping pertaining to water quality had their origins in waste water treatment.

 

[crsublette]

I'm pretty sure that the wastewater treatment field predates both hobby fish keeping and aquaculture. I'm open to any evidence that proves me wrong, or anything that shows either field using that terminology earlier then this.

I agree. I don't think anything that has been said here puts this into dispute. All of this definitely had to start from somewhere.

 

[crsublette]

Here is the better question to ask....

Which industry has the most in common with the garden pond hobby that you could learn from to improve your garden pond hobby?

Last I recall, "contraptions" are not necessary within the garden pond hobby and, depending on if you are a Novak AFS follower, some would even say contraptions are not necessary within the koi hobby.

Better yet... lets further refine it... lets say you have two options...

Would industry professionals within the wastewater treatment industy or the integrated multi-trophic aquaculture industry (IMTA) be more comparable to the garden pond hobby for you to better learn from?


Not trying to stir the pot up here or anything...