Hamstermann's pond build

[hamstermann]

Hi Everyone. I'm hoping you can help me with some advice on where to place a pond.

Here's an overhead view of my house and property, with measurements. I tried to use colors that correspond to the 811 service colors for utilities (red is electric, orange for communications, yellow for gas, purple for secondary water supply and sprinklers)

Here are some pros/cons for each area:

• Area A:
  • Pros:
    • It's out front and the backyard tends to be where my wife's free range chickens and our boys play, so they can keep their play space.
    • I get to eliminate lawn in most of the front yard
    • When removing the current sprinklers in favor of the pond, I may be able to dedicate one of my current zones to the pond for easy refills. Just leave some pipe above the desired water level and turn on the zone when I need to top off the pond. It would be on a timer so I couldn't forget it's on and flood the place.
    • Installing an overflow would be easy - just send a pipe out to the garden/orchard area next to the driveway. drain the pond and water the trees with nutrient rich water at the same time!
    • The south part of the pond (closest to the house) wouldn't get a lot of sun so not a ton of algae there.
    • There's already a single gang GFCI outlet on my front porch that I could plug into. No additional electrical work needed.
  • Cons:
    • Most of the utilities run through the west side of the front yard, so I either have to keep that part very shallow or only use 14.5 feet of space east to west.
    • Liability. This one is huge. It's easy to access even if I try to hide it behind berms. I don't want to be held responsible to anyone (or anyone's pets) drowning. There are currently no rules for ponds in my city, but that may not keep me from getting sued if someone can't read or ignores "No trespassing" signs and walks in.
• Area B (measurements are from the south side of the patio to the south flower beds in front of the vinyl fence and from the vinyl fence on the west to the end of the patio on the east)
  • Pros
    • The area is mostly flat since I worked very hard to regrade it and grow grass from seed a year or two ago. Some of the grass has thinned and dried out again and it would be good to get the lawn out.
    • It's in the backyard behind a lockable vinyl fence so liability isn't as much of an issue
    • Not a lot of utilities running through here. Especially if I leave the south flower beds along the fence in place.
    • It can be seen from both the kitchen sink and the dinner table.
    • it's pretty rectangular and empty of structures, so I can do any pond shape with it.
    • one of our gutters drains into it, so I could possibly use that for automatic top-offs
  • Cons
    • It takes away some of the playspace
    • Our chickens are free-range and destructive. Poop everywhere and no ground (and possibly no liner) that is rock-free is safe from digging, which will make safe construction difficult
    • I can build any pond shape into it - analysis paralysis.
    • It's full-sun, so the water will warm up quicker in the spring but algae may also be more of a problem.
    • There may be difficulties bringing the pond right to the edge of the patio without having the patio sink.
    • The 2" sprinkler lines that feed the front yard valves run through here and around the west side of the house. I can probably build them into or behind a pond wall or something, but that's a pain.
    • Would need to run electrical from the meter on the west side of the house.
    • Overflow will be difficult to do since the area is level and while it's not necessarily a "low spot", area C is uphill from it and Area A would be difficult to run pipe to.
• Area C (measurements are from house siding to fence and from gate to south side of house)
  • Pros
    • on the east side of the house, so typically only gets morning sun. Less Algae.
    • can take out grass
    • Ground slopes away from house so as long as we don't try to build right up to the house foundation, maybe flooding wouldn't be much of a problem
    • The North side of the area is higher than the south side, so overflow could just go over the south side of the pond toward the trampoline and the gravel areas surrounding it.
  • Cons
    • Sprinkler valve box (and the main secondary water line that feeds it) are in this area, so that means that the sprinkler control wires also run through here.
    • the only window that faces it is my daughter's bedroom - and she doesn't even live here for the next year or so. All the advice I've read or heard on pond placement says to put the pond where you'll see it every day from inside your home.
    • It's still in the backyard with the chickens and taking space away from the kids.
    • Would need to run electrical from the meter on the opposite side of the house.

Here's what I'm thinking no matter where place it:

• DIY Ecosystem pond with 40 or 60 mil EPDM liner.
• approximately 4' deep excavation so that hopefully when it's fully rocked in there will still be enough depth for the fish in the winter.
• Geotextile cloth under the liner, as well as between the liner and the heavier/pointier rocks
• Bog filter using culvert pipe for the cleanout vault and half culvert pipe for the inflow/under-the-gravel area, sloped toward the cleanout. Maybe 3-4 feet deep total. pile layers of gradually smaller rocks until you get to the top. Try to make it so that I can experiment with aquaponics (like planting melons and gourds in the bog so they have wet feet but dry rhizomes).
• Make the bog 30% of the pond's surface area (but outside of the pond).
• put a breather pipe in the top of the bog to break the siphon in the event of a power outage and to add flow over the top of the bog
• Maybe put a waterfall at the far end of the bog to aerate things, maybe put it in a different part of the pond to aerate and help with flow towards the intake bay
• Intake bay sized at 1 minute of pump volume, on the opposite end of the pond from the bog and waterfall. Will use a submersible pump in the bay.
• Bottom jets positioned to keep things off the pond bottom and push them towards the intake bay
• top jets to help with flow toward intake bay
• all jets, waterfall, bog, etc. powered by one pump
• not sure if I want lights - lights don't appear in nature but may help avoid people falling in at night. Then again, if I do put it in the front yard, lights would make it really obvious at night.
• If I don't do a separate waterfall, I may just make the bog 5 or 6 inches higher than the pond and use that drop for aeration. I need a way to keep the water from freezing completely in the winter and it sounds like a lot of people around me do it with their waterfalls.
• I'd like to have a way to turn off the bottom jets in the winter (ball valve somehow?) so that I'm not circulating the heat out of the bottom of the pond. not sure how to do this without having the ball valve high enough in the ground to have the line leading to and from it freeze. Frost line is 30 inches where I live.
• I hope to keep fish load low, having mostly goldfish and/or bluegill with maybe some mosquitofish. But I also want to be able to get into the pond and have the bog handle me and my family swimming in it if we get the urge or need to attend to something.
• make it as big as I can afford - I hear you always want your pond to be bigger so it probably makes sense to start out that way.
• Lots of places in the berms and among the rocks for plants (marginal and terrestrial)
• Use a wireless floating thermometer to monitor water temperature
• A stream would be nice, but isn't necessary. maybe I can put the bog into a stream.

Questions I have at this point:

• I've heard Brian Helfrich say that the way to avoid the "pimple/volcano" look is to come out level 2 feet from the sides of the pond before sloping the ground down. Is there a rule of thumb for how much space you need to account for when combining the slope and the 2 foot level area?
• What solutions can you suggest for the cons in each of the areas above and which area would you recommend I choose and why?
• how do you decide on the shape of your pond? I want a natural look that encourages everything to flow toward the intake bay without looking like a man-made perfect circle.
• What recommendations do you have for cheap/free-but-legal ways to obtain milk crates so I don't have to pay for aquablox or similar?
• Anything else you recommend I think about with each or any of the 3 areas?

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Lisak1]

Welcome!

You've given this a great deal of thought and research. I can't answer all your questions, but I can try with a few.

A front yard pond would be lovely - if you spend time in the front yard, or see yourself spending time in the front if you had a reason to be there. Removing grass is my hobby - I'd rather do just about any gardening chore other than mowing!

However, I think most people find themselves in the backyard more than the front - especially when you have a patio and other things out there that already draw you out. A place to sit, privacy, fenced - to me the backyard is the way to go. You know more about chickens than I do, but it sounds like they're likely to dig up areas around the pond that are planted or mulched. I've dealt with wild ducks - they can tear a pond up in short order. The idea of chicken poop everywhere isn't appealing - could you consider building a large chicken run and keep them more contained to one area? I would think that would make the whole backyard more usable for the whole family if the chickens don't have the run of the whole yard.

As for the kids - you'll find kids have hours of fun playing around a pond. Just make sure you pay careful attention to how it's constructed to make it safe. Places for them to easily get in and out with every rock perfectly stable and steppable. Our grandkids play around our pond all the time, chasing frogs and dreaming of catching my fish. Every kid should have a pond!

Avoiding the utility lines is huge - it's a big undertaking to get them moved AND even if they are deep enough, you don't want to risk building anything over them that would have to be removed if they need to service or replace the Ines. Been there - not fun. In a small suburban yard, it's nearly impossible to avoid underground utilities quite frankly, as your photo clearly demonstrates. Again - backyard is the easy choice when you consider utilities.

To me a waterfall is a must - aeration is one reason, but also for beauty. How big is totally up to you - you can make a waterfall with a very small drop that adds lots of interest and aeration to the pond or you can go big. All in the eye of the designer. Knowing where you will view the pond from is essential to deciding where to place it, as you already know.

Lots to think about - you're on the right track!

 

[hamstermann]

Thank you for making it through my really long post and sharing your good advice, @Lisak1!

 

[Lisak1]

Listen - I would much rather see a long well thought out planning post than the standard “so I dug a hole, didn’t measure, bought some liner, wife is angry, it’s a disaster - help me fix it” post that we typically see!

Do beware of the - as you called it - analysis paralysis that can set in. You have to be able to let some details just work themselves out in the build or you will literally never start!

 

[Mmathis]

Hello and welcome! Wow, great, well thought out!

 

[Mgessert]

Fun post! I vote for B, with the chickens confined. You‘ll enjoy seeing it from the house, it can be part of the play area, less liability, and the chickens don’t pay the bills. They’ll be fine.

 

[j.w]

@hamstermann
Wherever you place it make sure it will be in a spot that you will really enjoy sitting around relaxing and able to view it nicely. This is most important. I would like to be able to view it from windows also. Chickens like to scratch in stuff but if you make the outside area w/things that are harder to mess up I think they can still wander around and be pond involved also. You can place big rocks, driftwood, gravel and many sturdy type plants here and there. Make sure kids and critters like the chickens if they fall in have an easy way out.
Put the waterfall at the far end of the pond from where you will be viewing it as you so want to be able to always have that as a main viewing point.
This will be fun to watch you build. Hope you will provide vids, pix etc. so we can be a part of it all and if you have any questions or need help you can just ask away

 

[addy1]

Welcome to the forum!

I have a feeling your pond will be wonderful!

 

[GBBUDD]

This all depends on weather you are as diligent with leaning how to build the pond as you are with where to put one.

With proper techniques and if your listening to Brian your off to a good start. And one other thing he mentions is how much he feels having the pond right up close and personal to you living area or patio that that alone is the number one make or break to a pond .

Hands down B sprinkler won't be needed anymore in that area. And electric your going to need power out here.
My pond comes right up to my patio, and i would have it no other way. Your are right you may compromise the patio if you delay too long or you have poor soils " ask me how i know" the biggest mistake i made with my pond was digging too early. But a simple cinderblock wall and a footing solved that. But if it is done right and mother nature cooperates then your rock work could be all the support you need. The one problem you may have is drainage if the patio drains toward the pond this may need correcting if it is ONLY water from the patio it may not be a problem but keep in mind and cleaners could become and issue.

Waterfall in the lower right corner that way the patio where i assume the living room area is and the upper deck can both see the falls there's nothing that says you can have a little side falls either.

The question i have for you is will this be a eco pond a eco rec pond or a raised pond. are there young running around ?
Are you planning a wetland filter? a bead filter ? rdf ? or a simple bio falls

Ssince you seem very detailed this post i put together is probably right up your alley the second half is more about the build

Honored and Proud to have been chosen Aquascapes DIY pond of the year for 2023. 12,000 Gallon Koi Pond, Full Build

Large KOI pond with a Wetland filter, Negative edge and an intake bay. Start to finish, Building, Maintaining and expanding / seaming . https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=687652723148180

www.gardenpondforum.com

 

[hamstermann]

My pond comes right up to my patio, and i would have it no other way. Your are right you may compromise the patio if you delay too long or you have poor soils " ask me how i know" the biggest mistake i made with my pond was digging too early. But a simple cinderblock wall and a footing solved that. But if it is done right and mother nature cooperates then your rock work could be all the support you need. The one problem you may have is drainage if the patio drains toward the pond this may need correcting if it is ONLY water from the patio it may not be a problem but keep in mind and cleaners could become and issue.

Waterfall

Thanks! So did you wedge the cinder block wall under your existing patio, then? And does your liner go behind it or in front of It? Did you use mortar between them and rebar inside them or just dry stack onto the footing?

Under my patio is road base and under that, if I remember right, is pretty heavy clay.

I want to get digging because I know it will take a while with just me and my sons hand digging with shovels, but I have a few things to do first. I shared everyone's good advice with my wife today and we agreed to move the chickens into Area C, confine them somehow, and build the pond in area B. So now I need to figure out how to move their very heavy 5x10 coop without tearing up the lawn or breaking the coop, then find a way to contain them (she suggested orange plastic web fencing, I prefer the idea of a big dog kennel), then I can get to work digging. If we can get the chickens squared away soon, then maybe I can at least start to dig before the snow flies and look into pricing for adding an electric post or two. I should also probably work out the footprint and size of the pond before digging.

And yes, I'm absolutely going to put a ton of thought into every step. I'm spending hours and hours trying to learn from YouTube videos from Team Aquascape, Ed the Pond Professor, Greg Wittstock, John G at Modern Design Aquascaping, and Kevin at Ozponds. Also listened to Tyler Toorvoren, which is how I got to the forums. So much to learn and decide on, but it's fun!

 

[GBBUDD]

All your questions are answered in the blog i posted and then some .

Just found this incredible build while i understand it maybe a bit more then you may build you can steal and idea here or there

Some very impressive pond builds

www.gardenpondforum.com

 

[hamstermann]

Waterfall in the lower right corner that way the patio where i assume the living room area is and the upper deck can both see the falls there's nothing that says you can have a little side falls either.

The question i have for you is will this be a eco pond a eco rec pond or a raised pond. are there young running around ?
Are you planning a wetland filter? a bead filter ? rdf ? or a simple bio falls

Ssince you seem very detailed this post i put together is probably right up your alley the second half is more about the build

Honored and Proud to have been chosen Aquascapes DIY pond of the year for 2023. 12,000 Gallon Koi Pond, Full Build

Large KOI pond with a Wetland filter, Negative edge and an intake bay. Start to finish, Building, Maintaining and expanding / seaming . https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=687652723148180

www.gardenpondforum.com

Whoops. Didn't see this part of your post before. I'll check out the blog. Thanks!

Multiple waterfalls are a good thought if I can do it with one pump. I want to do everything with one pump if I can so I only have to maintain one and only have one adding to the power bill, etc.

I want it to be an eco pond with a wetland for filtration and an intake bay. My kids that still live at home are 11-18, so not little but I do still want to be living here when/if grandkids start to arrive.

 

[addy1]

My pond is a way down a slope, the house at the top of a 25 degree slope. The only place for the pond was at the base. Even then had to make a flat spot. But we can look down at it.

I agree with above up close is the best!.

 

[Pablo]

Congratulations on starting your project. Can definitely tell you have done your homework, I was doing the same thing last winter, watching videos, reading posts here etc. You had mentioned lighting and whether you should do it or not. Definitely do the lighting. You will regret not doing it during the build, not impossible to add later but it is easier now. I love the look of the pond at night, have two waterfalls with small puck lights under each and a spotlight across the pond. I wish I had put more lights in, but can add in the Spring. I am not a fan of the multicolor lights but the white lights look nice. I understand you want to keep it looking natural but it extends the time you can enjoy the pond and you can think of it as adding moonlight to the pond.
I've actually thought about starting a thread about lighting and getting people's different ideas, you dont see a ton of information on lighting (the types used, placement, etc) one of those things you get near the completion of the project and you want to fill it up as soon as you can so you rush that last part of the lighting.

 

[GBBUDD]

Whoops. Didn't see this part of your post before. I'll check out the blog. Thanks!

Multiple waterfalls are a good thought if I can do it with one pump. I want to do everything with one pump if I can so I only have to maintain one and only have one adding to the power bill, etc.

I want it to be an eco pond with a wetland for filtration and an intake bay. My kids that still live at home are 11-18, so not little but I do still want to be living here when/if grandkids start to arrive.

I understand your thinking and reasoning. However after doing this a few years now i have learned a good deal like two pumps are better than one for a couple big reasons.
1. a 12000 gph pump will consume a third more than say two 6000 gph pumps as the pumps step up in gph so does operating costs.
2. 5 years from not if a pump sucks in a rock and dies or a bunch of algae finds its way in and it blows the pump you have a second pump doing half the job, saving your fish from lack of o2.

AGREED LIGHTS ARE LIKE WATERFALLS THEY ARE A MUST ON TOP OF A MUST THEY ARE NOT A DEBATE THEY ....YOU GUESED IT MUST BE INSTALLED AT ANY PRICE THEY ARE NOT A OPTION THEY ARE A MUST

i have not one not two not three but 5 waterfalls on the one pump and i realy don't have a drastic slope and h

alf of what i do have is not used