Holding tank

[Mucky_Waters]

As much as I would like to get into the futility of heating an outdoor pond or address other misconceptions posted here, this is a thread about a holding tank, not winter issues.

However, for those that are still confused about whether fish die from either temperature or poor water conditions during periods of ice cover, watch this video for a little food for thought:
(hint: they're not dying from freezing temperatures)
I believe the subject fish is a member of the Cyprinidae family.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=969305923154425

Hmmm... That would certainly make it easier to ship koi long distances.

 

[MitchM]

 

[addy1]

I can just imagine unpacking a fish shaped ice cube and putting it in the pond..................and getting a fish.

 

[Becky]

I’m a fat old balled headed 71 year old white guy who was not raised in this politically correct world. I also do not suffer foolish counterfactual thought. If dialogue, firm science based discussion is not tolerated on this website, then that’s fine.

You were not criticised for your opinions, you were criticised for being rude. Please try to understand the difference. Scientific thinking is not only permitted here, it is encouraged.

As per the Forum Etiquette (which I hope you have now had a chance to read);

Discussion allows people to learn from other people's perspectives and experience - not everyone is right, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. However this does not mean that everyone has the right for their opinions to be accepted. You are all within your rights to disagree with an opinion expressed and to provide a counter argument; this is how everyone learns. But attacking each other instead of the theories expressed is rude and will not be tolerated here.

In short please treat each other as you wish to be treated yourself. If you disagree with a theory, then provide a counter argument to the theory instead of criticising the poster in a personal way. Likewise, if someone disagrees with your theory you should not take it personally.​

If you disagree with someone then provide a reputable source with your counterargument. After all, any claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[carolinaguy]

You were not criticised for your opinions, you were criticised for being rude. Please try to understand the difference. Scientific thinking is not only permitted here, it is encouraged.

As per the Forum Etiquette (which I hope you have now had a chance to read);

Discussion allows people to learn from other people's perspectives and experience - not everyone is right, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. However this does not mean that everyone has the right for their opinions to be accepted. You are all within your rights to disagree with an opinion expressed and to provide a counter argument; this is how everyone learns. But attacking each other instead of the theories expressed is rude and will not be tolerated here.

In short please treat each other as you wish to be treated yourself. If you disagree with a theory, then provide a counter argument to the theory instead of criticising the poster in a personal way. Likewise, if someone disagrees with your theory you should not take it personally.​

If you disagree with someone then provide a reputable source with your counterargument. After all, any claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Scientific fact is evidence. We don’t need a study to prove that gravitational acceleration is 32 ft per sec per sec. we don’t need to prove that crystalline ice crystals form above 32.0 degrees Fahrenheit and that liquid water occurs below 32.0 degrees in ice. We do need to respect buffers between threshold values for the safety of our charges. Everyone is allowed their opinion but not their own facts. The evidence you seek is in physical chemistry, physics, and chemistry books.

I have a close friend who installed a plastic formed koi pond in his yard in Boston, MA. It was the largest I have seen and was about 14 inches deep. He kept six or seven koi in the pond for several years and the pond would ice over. The koi were there every spring until one year they were all dead. Was it oxygen deprivation that season or a gradual destruction and scarring of their gill tissue that eventually pushed the entire pond over the brink? We don’t know what specifically killed them in the end; however we do know that buffering our standard for the viable range of koi life says that 34 is safer than 32 and 82 is safer than 96. At a local lake that cools a nuclear power plant, the center of the lake which can be 270 feet deep has had measured surface temperatures of 101 F in August with no apparent impact on the fish until one morning the water keeper goes out and photographs a massive fish kill and a surface covered with fish bodies. The day before there were no dead fish. You will not know your koi are dying until they are dead. I would never responsibly profess an opinion that koi are safe at 32 degrees to a novice koi keeper or that koi can live safely in 96 degree water. I will recommend intervention at 34 and at 82 with a warming technique or in house storage and at higher temperatures, a shade sail or shade netting or even bags of ice in the pond to buffer their water environment. I do dozens of pond visits a year on requests and give what advice I can and take mentoring new koi keepers very seriously. I don’t do it to bolster my own ego and am absolutely willing to admit when I am wrong, something that happens regularly, just ask my wife. This is not about me, it’s about the hobby, the beauty of the pet bond, and the safety of the fish. Don’t expect me to tolerate irresponsible advice.

 

[sissy]

I think what killed them is pond was only 14 inch's deep .No matter what depth does matter not how big it is .He may have just lucked out years before .Ponds abandoned here I am sure had more fish in them than I found but die off will happen even if it is a well taken care of pond .The lucky ones survived .I was amazed first one I took out and found fish alive but after that nothing amazed me .I do not agree with leaving ponds running all winter after my disaster ,but oh well live and learn .I was told and have told others what happened to me and that I live in a warmer state than some But if something happens then that is their choice .Things can go wrong fast and you cannot control mother nature .My koi survived in a preformed pond for 2 winters and yes they were small and I turned off pumps and had no heater ,was I lucky yes .I lost no fish

 

[Becky]

@carolinaguy you are, again, missing the point here. You were not criticised for your opinions, you were criticised for being rude.

You do know what google means don’t you? Plenty of material out there. The articles are crying for you to push the button. You do understand the laws of physics, right?

Why was there any need for this? Is your argument so weak that you need to resort to belittling others? Of course not. You had a good point to make, but instead of focusing on supporting your argument you resorted to criticising others for not agreeing.

There is a lot we can learn from others here - that is the point of forums. But if you break the forum rules, you face consequences.

I'm sorry @Tiffany that this topic seems to have got out of hand, if you would like me to close the topic I will do so.

 

[carolinaguy]

Okay guys and gals, sometimes when I teach this stuff I use the Socratic method with the audience in order to stimulate them to think through the issue and do their own research. It’s asking a question rather than giving an answer that stimulates learning. I’m not going to do your research for you. That said if you go to koivet you will hear a real vets recommendation. If you go to the Koi Health Advisors training documents you will also find the reference. If you contact Dr johnson’s Website you will hear what he has to say. The point is that there are plenty of experts out there, don’t include me in that group because I’m only an educated hobbyist with 16 years of koi keeping experience and four ponds I’ve build myself with my wife, if you look. The humorous thing here is that we are debating 2 degrees of temperature and what is the threshold for safety, and everyone is upset because one participant puts up articles about animals that have been frozen and are brought back to life. I’ve never seen one article about a fish of any species that can be frozen and come back to life. It’s just hard to hear an argument that puts someone else’s fish in jeopardy. If there is a consequence to caring about others, then there it is.

 

[MitchM]

@carolinaguy ,

#1) You are not our teacher, and many of your dubious claims from the past demonstrate that you are not qualified to be.

If you honestly don't understand why 7 koi died in an iced over preformed pond in Chicago, then that shows you don't understand much about ice cover, as you have already admitted to. Instead of paying lip service with regards to "bowing" to the experience of northern ponders, I suggest you keep you advice recommendations to pond issues that you are more familiar with, because you will be called out for inaccurate information, as I expect any of us would be.

.

 

[Lisak1]

I think he said Boston @MitchM not Chicago - but same difference.

14 inches in a pond that freezes full of koi is a disaster waiting to happen. I wonder if you warned your friend @carolinaguy ? A preform that was "the largest you've ever seen" still wasn't more than a few hundred gallons I'd guess. Small fish are different than big fish. What works one year will rapidly stop working the next as the conditions are changing - namely the fish are growing. Koi NEVER belong in a preform, period.

But years of others experiences and COUNTLESS ponds visited in my area (Chicago) tell me that koi in a pond that's at least 2 feet deep can live a long and happy life in the pond year round - no heater, no indoor move for the winter. I've visited ponds that have had the same fish in them for 25 years. And we have some winters that are long and cold, some that are mild, some that bounce back and forth all season long. Yes, you need to be prepared for potential equipment failure, yes you need to be prepared to top off the pond if the water gets low - but that's NO DIFFERENT than keeping a pond in the summer. The only variation is the conditions you will be working in if something needs attention - and honestly working in 97 degrees with 90% humidity isn't much more pleasant than 22 degrees with a stiff wind.

We all share our experiences here, but we do so knowing that everyone's circumstances vary. Instead of this being a forum of "teachers" and "learners" this is a forum of people who share and learn from each other - way more pleasant than being lectured to.

an educated hobbyist with 16 years of koi keeping experience and four ponds I’ve build myself with my wife, if you look.

We'd love to look - have you posted photos?

 

[MitchM]

I think he said Boston @MitchM not Chicago - but same difference.
...

Ah, thanks.

 

[carolinaguy]

And of course these comments have no sense of ridicule in them.

 

[MitchM]

And of course, you avoid the subject matter - again.

There are many unanswered questions put to you in the past that you have decided to not address.
The questions are regarding statements you have made vs accepted facts.
It would be much appreciated if you would address them.

.

 

[Becky]

It's like talking to a brick wall. I am not here to comment on who is right, I am here to uphold the forum rules.

@carolinaguy you are mistaking the criticism for being told you are wrong - in reality whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant. Do you think that if you are right that you can behave however you like? That you can belittle other members for their supposed intellectual inferiority? If I allowed that then the forum would be a miserable place to be. The more you continue to try and prove how right you are the more it is clear that you are missing the bigger picture - that you are in the wrong for your behaviour.

I am closing the topic, and you will be issued with a temporary ban. Further incidences of breaking forum rules may result in a permanent ban.