I feel like Im going in the wrong direction.....

[anthony21078]

Concerning the roots. Maybe you can cover that area with something ridgid. Maybe plywood or there's a flooring product that is cement based that is called hardy backer board. It will probably outlast plywood. You can buy it in various thicknesses at hardware stores, Home Depot or Lowe's.
Then a layer of carpet, carpet padding or underlayment. I would make sure I cover the area well beyond where the roots are at this time. They will probably spread out once they hit the board.

I like this idea....but at the same time Im intrigued by this post by Waterbug

Pond liners vs roots

Pond newbie here. Please be gentle. I read a book on koi keeping and decided to dig a small pond planning to use a 45 mil liner. However, the area I want to put the pond was formerly a planter. As I dug, I am concerned about the roots from the former plants and/or plants that are outside...

www.koiphen.com

It certainly couldnt hurt putting up a wall of that backer board (decently priced at home depot) if for nothing else then piece of mind. I just really wonder if its needed. Hmmmmm

 

[addy1]

I dug roots when I put in our pond. Apple tree and maple. 10 years later there has been no damage from them.

 

[poconojoe]

That's a very interesting post by waterbug. He makes a lot of sense. I especially like his experiment which he made a pot out of EPDM.
I myself and many people here have had ponds for many years and I've never read or heard of anyone having their liner punctured by a root. The soil in my area has a lot of roots...everywhere. I have dug many holes and there's always plenty to deal with.
So, if you want to play it safe and place a board where there is a rather large root, go ahead for peace of mind. Put it this way, it can't hurt and now is the time to do it. Once it's all built and filled with water, it's not so easy to make an alteration like that.

 

[Lisak1]

That's a very interesting post by waterbug. He makes a lot of sense.

The funny thing about that post is this is the very forum he's talking about where he says you will get questionable information from all of us pseudo experts. And I wonder who the "admin" with 15000 posts is that he refers to...

I do think he makes good sense though - roots will take the path of least resistance. If they come up against an obstacle they will find a new path. Once you've cut EPDM - yards and yards and yards of it - you realize it takes a sharp blade and an iron will! But there's certainly no harm in taking precautions. Underlayment seems way more reliable than newspaper or cardboard or even backer board... those will all decay or at least grow soft over time. I've also seen pond builders use hardware cloth behind the underlayment for added protection - that was more for preventing tunneling animals from getting to the liner, but it might give you some added security if you're really concerned about roots.

 

[GBBUDD]

Concerning the roots. Maybe you can cover that area with something ridgid. Maybe plywood or there's a flooring product that is cement based that is called hardy backer board. It will probably outlast plywood. You can buy it in various thicknesses at hardware stores, Home Depot or Lowe's.
Then a layer of carpet, carpet padding or underlayment. I would make sure I cover the area well beyond where the roots are at this time. They will probably spread out once they hit the board.

I found a product when i was building my bog it is a 1/8 fiberglass impregnated with an asphalt very tough stuff. you can get it from a commercial roofing company it is also some what pliable you can certainly make it round but once you have bent it in one direction you wil not be able to bend it in the opposite direction and scarp 90 degree corners are out unless you cut them. it is more forgiving then 1/4 ply wood but similar
i do have a grass in my bog that grows quick and it does have deep roots and at the tip of the root is a very sharp point'. but i was told by the nursery it did not have the strength to puncture. so far he has been correct. But i have thought about lining the bog for the top 24" with azex just to make sure not root could never think about puncturing the epdm

 

[poconojoe]

Interesting. So this asphalt fiberglass stuff is called azex?

 

[anthony21078]

I attached the smaller 5x10 liner to the larger 15x20 liner using the Loctite ps 30. The attached liners are in my basement curing. The smaller liner is to cover the water fall area. I use the word attached very lightly because I dont think this product is actually an adhesive? I put 2, 1/3" beads along the the enitre 6 inch overlap, rolled it with a pvc tube and finger smeared the lip with a bead as well. Im sure there will be no water getting through.

Im just a little concerned with transporting both these liners to the pond. Ill have 2 or 3 people carrying it once its rolled up but does anyone know if this particular sealant acts as an adhesive? Im a little nervous about the bead tearing once we transport it

 

[poconojoe]

I guess it depends how well that stuff sticks to the liner material. Just handle it gently. If it comes apart, try gluing it in place so you don't have to move it. Good luck and keep us posted.
I wouldn't trust a seal like that as a seam under water, only for an overlap to keep the flap in place.

 

[GBBUDD]

Interesting. So this asphalt fiberglass stuff is called azex? NO.... AZEK is basicly a sheet of plastic " in this case 1/4" x4'x8'= close to $100.00 dollars a sheet. That can be used in the pond " fish safe as far as i know.
The fiberglass with asphalt coating "[that you would never use in a pond]" is 1/8" very tough stuff 4'x8' sheet was if memory serves me correctly was only 10 bucks had say sharp jagged rock in your excavation this would be a good buffer to put against the stone then your fabric and rubber.. Once you et water fish and decorations that is the worst times to second guess if something might fail and create a leak

N

 

[GBBUDD]

Anthony if that seam is planned to be under water I would not trust it that is not meant to be a lap sealant to glue two pieces together if the seam is above water between the bog and the pond and water runs down the upper layer where it is over laps the bottom sheet then yes it is fine for that . or if you are gluing your mounting plate to the skimmer and the caulk if under the rubber between the mold of the skimmer. There are splice kits you can buy to bond two pieces of rubber together for underwater seams.

 

[anthony21078]

The seam wont be submerged. I didn't account for adding liner to the waterfall area so I needed join 2 liners together. The actual overlap should be roughly 12 inches above the waterline. I would have liked to return the original liner but returns were not accepted. @Gbbudd2 I also saw that video you posted a while ago. The materials used in that video are very expensive compared to a 7$ tube of loctite. I don't think I need to go that route.

Liner should be going in either tomorrow or the next day. Had to run a new electrical line to make some outdoor outlets. Also had to bite the bullet and purchase the rocks from a masonry supplier. Decent price I suppose but I had no other options. Slowly but surely...

On another note, still planning on a goldfish pond. Ive had fish tanks in the past ranging from 3-75 gallons and have always used Tetra safestart to get a new tank up and running. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with pond cycling. Can someone point me in the right direction from experience?

Anygood for jumpstarting the cycling process?

Amazon.com

Amazon.com : Aquascape Dry Beneficial Bacteria for Pond and Water Features, 1.1-Pound | 98949 : Pond Water Treatments : Gateway

Amazon.com : Aquascape Dry Beneficial Bacteria for Pond and Water Features, 1.1-Pound | 98949 : Pond Water Treatments : Gateway

www.amazon.com

 

[addy1]

A lot of cycle a pond by filling it up and just letting it run. Get a api test kit and check the water.

I cycled my last small pond, a old hot tub, by adding water, plants, crushed oyster shells, (we have acidic soft well water) I then let it run for around two weeks. After that I added a few fan tails, small, like 9. They all did great.

The plants were from my big pond so they brought beneficial bacteria with them.

I have never used bought bacteria so can't help you with that.

 

[GBBUDD]

The seam wont be submerged. I didn't account for adding liner to the waterfall area so I needed join 2 liners together. The actual overlap should be roughly 12 inches above the waterline. I would have liked to return the original liner but returns were not accepted. @Gbbudd2 I also saw that video you posted a while ago. The materials used in that video are very expensive compared to a 7$ tube of loctite. I don't think I need to go that route.

Liner should be going in either tomorrow or the next day. Had to run a new electrical line to make some outdoor outlets. Also had to bite the bullet and purchase the rocks from a masonry supplier. Decent price I suppose but I had no other options. Slowly but surely...

On another note, still planning on a goldfish pond. Ive had fish tanks in the past ranging from 3-75 gallons and have always used Tetra safestart to get a new tank up and running. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with pond cycling. Can someone point me in the right direction from experience?

Anygood for jumpstarting the cycling process?

Amazon.com

Amazon.com : Aquascape Dry Beneficial Bacteria for Pond and Water Features, 1.1-Pound | 98949 : Pond Water Treatments : Gateway

Amazon.com : Aquascape Dry Beneficial Bacteria for Pond and Water Features, 1.1-Pound | 98949 : Pond Water Treatments : Gateway

www.amazon.com

i swear by safestart and other similar products it was a little rough in the beginning but i also knew i was cycling the pond and i fed the fish well for the waste to get the cycle started but i also have a huge bog. but when the fish stared flashing and i started to see some scrapes i added start right in large quantity like 2 of there big bottles i think it was 64 oz it made noticeable differences almost immediately . Again that was just in the beginning i don't add anything any more that was short lived.

 

[anthony21078]

A little more progress. Ill tell ya what, that underlayment goes in real easy.....but that liner was such pain WOW. I was trying my best to avoid huge creases and I wanted the bottom to be relatively smooth and crease free. Not sure if its possible lol...or really matters.

I talked myself out of doing the enitre pond with rocks and tried to go with the suggestions in this thread about the small shelf around the top perimeter to hide the liner. I may have went a bit too far and wound up using almost the entire first shelf for larger rocks followed by smaller ones up top. I was also planning on covering the floor with gravel and putting several random large/medium rocks on the floor. I lost my plant shelf and I really have no idea if this layout is going to look strange.

As far as the plant shelf goes, do I really need it? I found this picture below online. Perhaphs floating plants and deep water plants will work for me? It might not look it from my picture but there are some areas on top of the large rocks that are rather flat and could hold a potted plant.

Be honest, is this layout going to look awkard if left as is? (Gravel floor is coming)
Leave it alone and work on the waterfall?
Remove all the rocks and start over?
Bite the bullet and buy more rocks to line the entire pond?

 

[GBBUDD]

Be honest, is this layout going to look awkard if left as is? (Gravel floor is coming) along with the gravel floor place a couple larger rocks as focal points and place hornwart or similar along side them or tuck them under a smaller rock to the side at deeper depths the eye can be tricked in not seeing the edge of the pond as the black looks infinite.
Leave it alone and work on the waterfall?
Remove all the rocks and start over? instead of planning a plant shelf that looks totally artificial try making some gaps between the rock and tuck the plants in the gaps trust me it will look very realistic but be careful what plants you choose some grow so fast it can become an issue trying to remove them.
Bite the bullet and buy more rocks to line the entire pond? More rock is always a good choice the more the liner is protected the longer it will last. and be mindful of any sharp or pointed rock. I would not place gravel at the bottom on the liner.