Permanent net structure needed, badly


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This was our answer, although you would require some netting to prevent the leaves from blowing in the sides. All of the lumber is pressure treated, and our long side is 16'. The short side is 12' (as is the roofing material.) I suspect two of these butted together would come in well below your budget.

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The distance between the two front corners of the structure is 16' and the roof panels are 12' long although it's difficult to tell from this angle.
 
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An iron works artisan came to the house. The cost is going to be quite high. Material is 2inch square steel...not sure how thick, but strong enough to handle a falling large branch. Dimension 18x18. Four posts about 8 ft high, topped with an a-frame construction roof. On each side of the roof peak will be one tie-in going the length and one going the width. That mean four openings (4.5 x 4.5 ft) on each side of the roof. Braces on each post. Painted black...not power coated, too expensive. Each post welded to a heavy metal plate as the footing. Hooks on the perimeter to secure a shade cloth...or something...yet to be decided.

I'm going to guess 4-5k. And, we still need to have a pond guy come: reset creek stones around perimeter, put in an overflow line, and re-do the water fall....and do rustic hardscsape on the apron of the pond.

On a personal note, at 68 I am now wondering how much longer in the house where now living. I've seen a few couples wait to do their dream house only to have life take a turn shortly thereafter.
 
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This was our answer, although you would require some netting to prevent the leaves from blowing in the sides. All of the lumber is pressure treated, and our long side is 16'. The short side is 12' (as is the roofing material.) I suspect two of these butted together would come in well below your budget.

View attachment 118676

The distance between the two front corners of the structure is 16' and the roof panels are 12' long although it's difficult to tell from this angle.
Timothy, Awesome. Your post just popped up. I'm not sure I grasp the solution, though. I assume that you are talking about the structure in front of the pond that covers the deck? Looks like timber beam construction...which is what I always prefer. Can you show more photos?
Although I'm going to get a proposal for steel framing, I will get one for timber wood construction which will not be easy. I only want four posts and the exact dimensions are 18 x 18.
 
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I don't know whether you are rural or urban, or if building codes would apply. We are rural and since our structure is free standing, not attached to the house, and considered portable it's not subject to too much scrutiny.
I can upload a few photos tomorrow morning to give you a couple of idea's. Another source of idea's is Youtube. If you search 18'X18' carport or pergola, there's a few pictured that may be adaptable to your needs.
We went the pressure treated route because in just a couple of years the wood has taken on a nice gray patina and appears to have been there longer than it really has and requires virtually no maintenance. A steel structure will require painting occasionally and doing that over the pond may be problematic.
I don't think a competent builder would have much trouble creating four 18' timbers by marrying two or three 2X's and setting them in notches cut into four 8X8 posts. Of course it would require cross-bracing and some substantial angle bracing to keep the corners square and sturdy, and I would bolt the structural parts rather then lagging or nailing, but your contractor would be the one to decide that as he's the one that has to warranty his work.

As for your personal note, only you can decide (I'm assuming) when to down-size. On the other hand, if you like where you are and in good health, don't mind fiddling around with the pond, and just doing "stuff", then you may find where you are is where you want to be.
It's a cliche' I know, but age is a number. How you feel, act, and live is how old you are.
 
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Here's a few photo's of our pond's "front porch" They're not very flattering as being Feb. everything is on hold for a couple more months.

From the back upper corner to the lower front (left) the dimension is 12'. The width across the front is 16' which is spanned by one 2X10 and shows no sign of sagging even with a snow load on the roofing material. The plank barely visible on the top of the roof on the lower end is secured to a couple of cleats on both front corners. This prevents a gust of wind from getting under the roof and stressing the fasteners.
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The carriage bolts and corner bracing. The bracing is lagged with 5/8" lag bolts.
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The rafters are bird-mouthed into the 2X10 which is not notched to maintain the strength integrity of the span. Also visible are the cross-bats that support the "Box Store" metal roofing. This metal roofing is lighter gauge, but for this purpose is adequate. It's also apparent that we added the extension to accommodate the 12' long metal roofing. Originally, we used canvas tarps for the shade aspect, but they only lasted two seasons even with taking them down and storing them in the winter. Had I known then what I know now, we'd have put up 12' rafters and gone with the metal roofing from the beginning. If you built two of these extended two feet, and placed back to back with the leaf netting fastened to the edges it might meet your requirements.
118744

After all the bleak winter shots, I felt compelled to add a couple more flattering summer images. :)
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After re-reading the thread I noticed you were in Kentucky....any where near Owensboro?
 
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Timothy, Wow...and more wows! You would be our kind of neighbor. Rustic and a great sense
of fun tinkering with beauty. Enjoyed very much looking at all of your many pictures! Spent some time
looking at how you notched in your beams.

We live in the suburbs of Louisville. Most neighbors,here, spend more
time installing mulch than much more in their yard. Or, they cut down trees, install in ground pools, and
landscape with fake boulders. Ok, nuff complaining. Back to the project.

The metal artisan was indeed too expensive (4.8k). Super nice guy. He referred me to a landscaper contractor whom I met yesterday.
Great expectations. We talked about a wood structure. He is optimistic that he can work with just four posts for an 18x18 structure.
I googled timbre frame pergolas. Below represents what, for now, is my preferred design. It's preferred because I think that roof boards that go in the same directions as the roof ridge will be a better match for the application of shade/net cloth. On the other hand, If there are structural reasons to go with the more traditional roof design where there are rafter tails then I would want to finish the tails with a facial board. The pitch on the roof will be fairly flat, not as steep as in the design attached below.

Goals: Structurally sound, aesthetically pleasing, low maintenance, and functional for the application of fabric.

While I try to avoid treated wood, just not economical to go with a natural untreated wood. If I was to do such, I would use eastern red cedar. We built a screen house with using much of it from a local mill about 90 minutes away. Nothing for posts, more so for framing in window areas, door, and braces. In this case, to keep it simple most likely all treated wood. A silvery patina can be created by using a solution made from adding water to ground up tea leaves...sold on line. It works very well. No need to wait for weather to make the patina and this solution will make it pleasingly uniform.

Comments welcome!
How would you anchor the posts?
With the design below...will it work for an 18x18 footprint? (I only want to use four posts)
Size of the posts: 6x6,8x8,8x6?
Any extra details to add in consideration of the fabric application? Whatever I use I prefer to leave up all year round
and use my cordless blower to remove leaves.
Any guesstimates at cost? (I will let share the proposal)

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Thank you! I'm flattered.
The amusing thing to me is you mentioned people in your area building in ground pools.......our pond was an in ground pool and since we seldom used it we converted it to a water garden. Our sitting area is where the diving board used to be. :)

I really like the structure in the image you posted! I'm just an amateur hack when it comes to this kind of thing, so whatever I say here isn't gospel, and would readily defer to your contractor as he's the one who would have to answer for any shortcomings. I will tell you what I did, then you can use the idea's or not at your discretion.

The larger posts of our structure are free-standing. They've been there for six years and haven't moved a fraction in spite of the storms, wind, ice, and snow. The lighter colored posts (4X4's) that support the outer ends of the metal roofing are pinned. I drilled a 5/8" hole into the concrete a couple of inches deep, then drilled holes in the center-bottom of the 4X's 2" deep. After driving a 4" long headless 5/8" bolt into the concrete I set the 4X on the protruding stud. This was done because the natural flow of traffic was around/through where the 4X's are and I didn't want someone relying on the post being secure only to have it move at the bottom.

I don't know why you couldn't laminate (marry) a couple of 2X10's or 2X12's to create an 18' span. Again, your contractor would be able to determine the sizes required. As for the posts, I'd be inclined to use 8X8's as much for strength as for scale. The structure would look spindly if the legs were too small, and I'd guess too big would be better than too small when it comes to appearances.

Personally, I'm a believer in the metal roofing. In the beginning we had a genoa from a sail boat for shade that we took down in the fall and put back up in the spring. Sun, rain, tree dropping stains etc did that in. Then I bought an 18 X 16 tarp (this was before the extension) that allowed a little over hang. I had put the bats up perpendicular to the rafters to help support the tarp which prevented the rain from creating low troughs in-between the rafters. A $130 + tarp would last two years before it began to deteriorate. I did this a couple of times. These tarps were also a nuisance to put up and take down each season. I began to look at the metal roofing at one of the big box stores and the more I looked at it the better I liked the idea. The material came in 12' lengths, and my original structure was 8' from front to back. Then I had to decide whether to cut the roofing, or extend the structure. No brainer here. (We are on a well, and all the rain we can capture is a plus. I have a system to capture rain from the house roof, but that's another story.) Extending the structure to accommodate the 12' lengths of roofing is why there's apparently "new" lumber. The additional length also allows rain water to run directly into the pond. (Full disclosure here....some folks wouldn't approve of this......) In your case you could divert it off to your lawn, or let it flush the accumulated leaves off.
Just my opinion, but if you're going to have to blow off the leaves and tree droppings, I'd suspect a metal roof (or perhaps fiberglass - both of which comes in several colors) would make your job easier and it would be a one time expense compared to fabric, plus you'd be able to leave it up year round.

I also had intended to put up a facia board, but after everything was said and done, the overhang was two feet from the edge of the pond - on the water side! I guess if I were smart I'd do it now while the ice in the pond is 14" thick and can easily support a ladder.....I'll have to think about that.

Let us know how your project progresses!
 
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I completely relate to your experience of going from tarps to a metal panel.
About ten years ago I took a chance on purchasing a "sail cloth" from coolaroo. It was 12 x12 ft and worked out very nicely to hang over our deck. Since then I've accumulated more courtesy of costco. However, the quality is not the same. Much thinner and lacks a certain luster. The original has held up which is amazing since even when taken down for the winter it still hangs from a tree. It's been fun climbing ladders and positioning these sails all over the yard. But, as age marches my creativity favors lower maintenance...particularly for the pond.
I will still have some of sails hoisted, just not as many. I like how the light collects on them and adds dimension to the yard. I also used to sail...24'ft columbia. Reminds me of my youth on the water (out of New Orleans).

I added some pictures of our screen room. It is sited about ten yards from the pond. Lucked out on a good deal with a 29 gauge roof, which is heavier than what gets in the box store and the way it is applied leaves less chances for a leak. From what I hear, the galvanized roof panels frequently leak within three years. Installation is a major factor, particularly with how it reacts to high winds. Once the weather warms up, my wife has all of her meals in this screen room.

But, for the pond structure under consideration, indeed, I have been giving thought to using those metal panels from the box stores.
Any drips would be a non event, and it sure would be easier to blow leaves off of them as well as not likely need to be replaced for the next ten years. Whatever gets applied will be meant to stay up all year round. The down side to the panels is loss of light. The area is already heavily shaded.

Which structure from the last post to you like the best? The first one or the last one?
I like your comment on the post size. "Scale" is an important visual consideration.
That's something that I can't easily project and will defer to the contractor.

As for how the posts are installed, my sense is that most contractors strongly prefer to avoid
free standing. I am tempted to use some kind of steel plate for the footing, but my guess is that
the contractor rather have it in the ground. Less twisting, even with braces, is his concern.

Can I get you to guess at the cost?
For the 8x8 post, it looks like Menards is the only choice. I'm not seeing it at lowes or HD.
For materials, alone, my guesstimate is 1500. I did some quick perusing of menards
online treated lumber. Rounded up. Then double that for labor. 3k? Too low or too high?

Thanks for your interest. Makes us a better consumer when working with the contractor.
I'm very pleased with him and this is not something I easily say. No commitments, as of yet.
We area attached to our little corner of nature, but we are less than content with our neighbors.
I know what it's like to have great neighbors and really miss that feeling.

Another issue is that behind us is a golf club.
I was an active member there for decades, but I quit due to injuries (age related) and did not want to push the
financial envelope. I ascribe to living below ones means. A few broken windows from golf balls.
Kind of distressing since I know that most members there are careless and don't care. Plus, the
law is on their side. I've seen how litigation works. As soon as the grass growing season returns
high speed deck mowers are out by 5am. The tractor reel mowers are long gone. This is why
its hard for me to commit funds, but I feel a need to feather our nest.

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Love your screen room! Looks like a great place to enjoy an evening. Your pond area looks like a very nicely secluded area in spite of being in the midst of things.

As far as which structure, I would go with the last photo. With the conventional rafters you could also add light stringers across the top parallel with the ridge pole which would help to stiffen the structure as well as add support for any material you decide to put on the top be it a fabric or the metal/ corrugated fiberglass panels.
Something I noticed in your photos, your structure will be situated on "soft" ground which I'm sure your contractor would prefer building on Quickcrete or similar tubes. (Our freestanding is on a concrete slab that extended the width of the pool.)
If you decided to use FG panels the opaque qualities of the clear or green ones would provide a diffused light to the pond, but I'm not sure it would be plant friendly except for specific shade only species. The downside of the corrugated FG is the sawn fillers that are recommended to support the panels at intervals. I used the three ridged flat natural steel panels from Lowe's. The adjoining ridges overlap creating a pretty good waterproof seal. When they start rusting it'll just be more "character", but by that time I'll be pretty old and pretty rusty myself.:)
As for costs, I really couldn't hazard a guess. Your costs would be below ours because the even though we have an abundance of timber up here, the lumber yards would have you believe we were at the end of the world and that translates to more costs for everything.
 
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RE panels...I do like the ridged flat steel design. Similar to what we have on the screen house. The downside is that no light gets transmitted. Half fabric-half panels come to mind but having any fabric means that I'm defeating the purpose of lower maintenance.

When the panels were installed on the screen house, the supplier emphasized the need for some accessories that keep the wind from whipping up under the edges. To my frustration, I never got to see what he was talking about though I did buy the whole package. The contractor had everything in place before I could see for myself.

Re which structural design....good points. I only know too well that the larger the openings between wood slats, the less support...particularly for fabric.

One major question that I need to ask....when rain water drips from the treated wood will the pond ecology and the fish be harmed?
There's less "poison" in treated wood these days but not entirely.

Theoretically, treated wood can have a protective "marine" coat applied. But, nothing will last and I'm of the opinion that wood needs to breathe.

Thanks for your careful attention to details. Your feedback is well appreciated.
 
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RE panels...I do like the ridged flat steel design. Similar to what we have on the screen house. The downside is that no light gets transmitted. Half fabric-half panels come to mind but having any fabric means that I'm defeating the purpose of lower maintenance.

When the panels were installed on the screen house, the supplier emphasized the need for some accessories that keep the wind from whipping up under the edges. To my frustration, I never got to see what he was talking about though I did buy the whole package. The contractor had everything in place before I could see for myself.

Re which structural design....good points. I only know too well that the larger the openings between wood slats, the less support...particularly for fabric.

One major question that I need to ask....when rain water drips from the treated wood will the pond ecology and the fish be harmed?
There's less "poison" in treated wood these days but not entirely.

Theoretically, treated wood can have a protective "marine" coat applied. But, nothing will last and I'm of the opinion that wood needs to breathe.

Thanks for your careful attention to details. Your feedback is well appreciated.
Good morning!

The treated wood has had no impact on our pond. In our case the roof run-off to the pond is never in contact with the wooden part of the structure, and the run off from the parts that do get wet is absorbed by the ground around the outside of the pond and isolated from the pond water by the liner. We have plants around the edge of the slab where the run off would be considered concentrated and they show no signs of stress.
Our pond isn't very sophisticated, but we have all of the natural inhabitants that any body of water would have in our area including species of insects and critters that would naturally shun our pond if the water were the least bit toxic.

Concerning the wind aspect, with all of the trees and buildings surrounding your pond, short of a very severe storm is wind an issue?
 
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Great quotes! Will Rogers, no matter how many times I read him, sounds new.
Unfortunately, winds whip up. We lost our coverage from the golf course a number of years ago. Tornados took out
pine and hemlock. Eight mature ones covered the yard, and the tops of the sweet bays that surround the pond snapped.
What an horrendous day. Most homes got spared. 40 mile gusts are common. They come with every front that goes through the ohio valley.

At this point, I feel that I've done my homework. It's a wait and see as to what the contractor decides is best. As much as he seemed to bond with us, I never know how these relationships evolve. He's a busy guy, in demand. I suspect that my project is more complicated than most of his clients. Our yard does not have easy access.

You've been a big help with helping me focus. Or, you've been a big enabler. :)I feel that this project is taking on a life of its own. Once I get to "see it" I feel a compulsion to do it.
 
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Great quotes! Will Rogers, no matter how many times I read him, sounds new.
Unfortunately, winds whip up. We lost our coverage from the golf course a number of years ago. Tornados took out
pine and hemlock. Eight mature ones covered the yard, and the tops of the sweet bays that surround the pond snapped.
What an horrendous day. Most homes got spared. 40 mile gusts are common. They come with every front that goes through the ohio valley.

At this point, I feel that I've done my homework. It's a wait and see as to what the contractor decides is best. As much as he seemed to bond with us, I never know how these relationships evolve. He's a busy guy, in demand. I suspect that my project is more complicated than most of his clients. Our yard does not have easy access.

You've been a big help with helping me focus. Or, you've been a big enabler. :)I feel that this project is taking on a life of its own. Once I get to "see it" I feel a compulsion to do it.
An independent contractor is also a consummate salesman. He has to be to keep busy. Having said that, don't let him bully you. All you're asking him to build is an 18'X18' covered shed without wall studs, doors, windows, siding, or interior floor. Granted, it will require some engineering to develop the perimeter timbers, but with appropriate bracing from the legs the unsupported span quickly becomes less than 16'. (I see some antique corbels...:) ). Two guys could carry the timbers I would think, and although I don't know the situation, would access from the golf course side be an option? Are there any barn reclaiming outfits in your area? (re-purposing an old barn frame might be interesting......)

Glad you're enjoying the project! It's always fun to have a "mission" to sort out....it keeps the juices flowing! :)
 
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Timothy, You're hired! We like your style. Could have used your experience and sentiments when dealing with the contractor of the screen house. Never could accept why someone would undermine their good skills with deceit and hostility. When you mentioned "bully", he was a handful. I got what I wanted but it wasn't fun. The more knowledgeable I became, the better I was at managing him. Reminds me too well that "youth is wasted on the young."

I've been trying to visualize an opportunity for where and how I can blend character and function. The braces may be the element to do this. There is a place that collects vintage wood. I like your suggestion...again. If I end up keeping it bare bones there's always a way to accessorize with cool stuff to hang...lots of choice hanging spots. And, it's a given that I will need some lattice work sited where the wind blows the leaves into the pond. Good opportunity to grow shade loving vines.
 
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:D:D Thank you. If I still lived in Owensboro I'd take you up on that!

Looks like you've got a pretty good handle on it. Keep us posted on your progress!
 
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I heard back from contractor. He prefers a mono pitch. I asked him his reasons....await to hear his response.
Originally, he preferred the traditional a-frame pitch which would mimic the over hang that looks out over the pond.
118888stringers could be added, here too.118896
Functionally, I'm not sure which is easier to blow off leaves.
An a-frame seems easier to get a blower positioned.
The mono pitch directs the leaves into one place, behind the pond which would be where they go now.

As for metal panel vs fabric...my wife wants the light. Coolaroo has made quality shade cloths that hold up.
Not all their sail cloths are the same. So, knowing that a fabric application is likely....any thoughts on mono vs
a-frame pitch?

Did you live in owensboro,ky for a long time? Maine is quite a switch. I spent a few weekends in Sullivan, Maine....many years ago.
 
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Hi, I tend to agree with the contractor particularly since you'll be using a fabric "roof". The low side wouldn't have to be standard height, it could be anything you wanted which (assuming it's lower,) would make it easier to put the fabric up in the spring, and remove in the fall after the leaves are down. Of course I don't know how you're situated with prevailing winds, majority of leaf debris, and the aesthetics of which way the structure will be oriented, but netting all around with access to the pond by lifting the leaf net would be reasonable. A mono slope may also help to gather leaves in one area where an A frame would distribute them to two area's.

I worked on a Coast Guard river boat home ported in Owensboro about 2.5 years from early '67 to late '69. I retired from the CG here in Maine in '81 and decided to stay. We get cold, snow, ice, and long winters, but those things don't wipe out a lifetime of work like a tornado, hurricane, or flood. When it gets really cold it can be a nuisance, but it's temporary.
 
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Just a suggestion, add a good hedge of conifers between you property and the golf course. Exciting gardens has some, I was just looking at some for the north side of my property to keep north winds down. Or there are deciduous kinds that make good hedges if your only concerned about it in warm weather. If you have a local growerey, you might find a tree suitable to your area you like better, but look at Exciting gardens .com. They have a few species that are hybrids for fast growing hedges that get quite tall.
 
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Jamie...After the tornadoes wiped out a line of 50 ft pines and hemlock, which was about five years ago, i went to costco and purchased 12 leyland cypress (or, was it emerald cypress?). But, some nearby remnants of maple trees accelerated their width and a lack of sun have blunted the growth of these cypress trees which are now about six feet tall and many are browning on the backside. We've also planted native tree like bushes: service berry and american cranberry. Not much more I want to do. As a rule fast growing trees end up being trouble.

Timothy...The coolaroo fabric is sturdy enough to leave up all year round. Except for about 30-45 days in the dead of winter "stuff" keeps falling from various trees into the pond. This fabric cleans up decently with a strong hose spray. As long as there are not large areas for the fabric to sag from the weight of ice and snow, I am good with leaving it up. In fact, it needs to stay up.

The good news is that the contractor got back with me. So many of these guys fade away, as I think that they saw our projects as a little too complicated and possibly the home owner as too particular, or something. Which is probably true.o_O When we do have workers on site, we think of ourselves as supportive. They get lots of chocolate and a hot lunch if they want it. I regularly keep food around for one pot meals. All quality stuff from the local farmer's market.

In the midst of the Vietnam war I strongly considered the Cost Guard. I frequently sailed out of New Orleans and regularly passed the Coast Guard station wondering if there was going to be a day that they would be pulling be out of the lake. White out squalls caught me a few times. Our neighbor's sun is serving the Guard, now. I think he is posted somewhere in Maine.
 
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You had me at "chocolate". :) !
When I got to Owensboro I had just returned from Viet Nam after a 14 month tour. It took a while to get used to the river work, but after a couple of months I began to like it. From KY I went to another boat in Memphis and worked on the "Miss" for a couple of years.
Two months before I retired I swore my boy into the CG so technically we were in at the same time. He went the aviation route, OCS, and retired a few years ago after 33 years.
If I had it to do over, I wouldn't change anything except I may have gone from E7 to E9 instead of CWO. Either way, it'd be CG for sure.

Sorry, I got a little off subject..........when does your project start?
 
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